[00:00:00]

Cathy: Yeah, the people in my high school I’ve grown up with since kindergarten, basically, I first met Owen in seventh grade. They were just like a high school couple in a movie.

Todd: We were like best friends.

Cathy: But the more friends you have, the easier it is to be betrayed by them. Something dangerous could happen. A high school girl in Michigan was cyber bullied for more than a year,

Todd: and who turned out to be the suspect?

Todd: Shocked everyone. All right, there we go. That was so bad. Unknown number. The high school catfish. We’re doing something current today. We are, we’re taking a departure from our regularly scheduled, uh, gen X, gen X 1980s, 1990s, 2000 movies. And Kathy stumbled across this [00:01:00] documentary that we think is going to, a lot of people are gonna be talking about if they, if they haven’t already.

Cathy: I think that they already are. Um, and again, it just depends on if you’re on social media, TikTok, if your kids are talking about it, if you watched it yourself, you know, not everyone’s. A documentary person. Um, but I think it has a lot to discuss, um, in terms of parenting. Um, and I think it has a lot to discuss in terms of cell phones and emotional maturity.

Cathy: And also, uh, just an FYI for everybody. There is a big reveal at the end of this documentary, and for the first, like, beginning of this podcast, um, as we’re kind of going through it, we’re not going to say that reveal. And then at some point, I don’t know, 15 minutes in, 30 minutes in, we’re gonna say, okay, from here on out.

Cathy: Yeah. If you haven’t watched it

Todd: and you want to

Cathy: then stop listening or go watch it and come back, or if you’ve already watched it, keep going.

Todd: We don’t wanna compromise your viewing experience. No. But, uh, so we’re gonna give you a heads [00:02:00] up, but, um, it is, uh, we, I watched it, was it last night? Or two nights ago?

Todd: Two nights ago. Two nights ago. And, uh, but first, um, sweetie wrote a book called Restoring Our Girls, how Real Conversations Shape Our Daughter’s Lives, help them with the Teen Challenges and remind them that they matter in bookstores right now. And, and Amazon.

Cathy: If this, you know, documentary’s interesting to you, the book will be interesting too ’cause I talk about these things.

Todd: Uh, Kathy and I also do Team Zen. We just recorded a Zen Parenting Live podcast for Team Zen. So Zen Parenting

Cathy: Live, you should play the music.

Todd: Um, um,

Cathy: Zen Parent music,

Todd: this one. Zen

Cathy: parenting music. Yeah.

Todd: Kicking it back. Old school, just doing a, a live podcast for just our Team Zen people. And, uh, Kathy does a woman circle and I feel like there’s one other thing we offer.

Cathy: What’s that? Uh, if you, um, are on teams end, you get my substack. For free. I have a paid version and it’s like $50 a year, but you get it for free.

Todd: So, um, let’s, why did you wanna bring this to Zen Pop Parenting? [00:03:00]

Cathy: Well, first of all, what is Zen Pop parenting? Uh, where Gen X culture meets real life reflection?

Cathy: Right. So this is going to somewhat, it’s not necessarily about a Gen X movie or Gen X music, but I think it has a lot to do with Gen X parenting. Yeah. Um, so I watched this kind of on a whim, like over the weekend I was on social media and I saw that, I was noticing on TikTok that a lot of people were saying, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

Cathy: You know, like, can’t believe this, can’t believe this. So, you know, that sucks me in pretty quick. I watch a lot of documentaries, a lot of them I stop watching after 20 minutes because it’s not any good. This one, um, is good. It will, you’ll get into it really quick. I think it is. Um, it’s well done. It’s tight, you know what I mean?

Cathy: It moves fast and I think it’s only like an hour and 30 minutes, hour and half. Hour and a half. So, um,

Todd: can I give you the story at a glance? Uh, sure. Go ahead. And then we’re gonna set the scene after that. Sure. It’s a story of about a teenage couple named Lauren and Owen and they’re from Beal City, [00:04:00] Michigan.

Todd: Correct. Tiny little town in Michigan. 300 people, 400 people, yeah. Something like that. And Lauren and Owen start receiving 50 harassing texts per day. Uh, and it escalates into some really crazy explicit mean sexual, like what other adjectives can I use to describe the awful nature of these texts?

Cathy: Kind of unfathomable.

Cathy: Like it doesn’t really make sense. There’s not a lot of rhyme or reason. And this also goes on for 22 months.

Todd: Yes. And so they call, eventually they call the cops in and eventually they call the FBI in. Mm-hmm. So that is the story at a glance. Is that a good summary?

Cathy: That’s a good summary. And I’ll also say, well actually go ahead with, set the scene and then I’ll start that process.

Todd: All right. Go ahead and set the scene, sweetie. Okay,

Cathy: so first of all, as Todd said, this is called Unknown Number, the Heights, the High School Catfish. [00:05:00] I kind of don’t like the title, I gotta be honest with you. I think it doesn’t describe it very well and it

Todd: discriminates against Catfish.

Cathy: Well, that too, but that’s not really what bothers me the most.

Cathy: I just, if I would’ve seen this on Netflix and I didn’t, no one told me to watch it, I’d be like, eh, whatever. You know what I mean? Whatever. But that’s what it’s called. Um, it’s only on Netflix. That’s where you find it. And it was directed by Sky Borgman, who has done, um, girl in the Picture, abducted in plain sight.

Cathy: She’s a very well thought of documentarian. Um, and she, so I understood that too. She also did the, if you’re watching The Biggest Loser. Documentary that is also on Netflix. She did that as well. So just a, a woman who’s a really, really, really good documentarian. Um, and so this is, this happened, this story happened.

Cathy: Um, it’s a true story of course, thus the documentary, you know, version. But it was 2020 when things began. So it was like during COD and just to kind of, like [00:06:00] Todd said, there were, it is really about, um, that these text messages started coming. And how old are the kids? They were, I think 14 or 15 when they started.

Cathy: Okay. So yeah, 14.

Todd: I think

Cathy: they were a couple. I mean, they were a young couple. They were like freshmen in high school. And so then they started to get these texts. Like Todd said, they were very inappropriate. They were very, not only were they somewhat threatening, but they were sexual and they were, you know, not okay.

Cathy: Um, and they were coming fast and furious and. You know, they, they kind of started and then stopped for a little bit and then came back. So there, it’s kind of murky about how things really went down because they only had an hour and a half to tell us, but it wasn’t good. Um, and it ended, everything kind of came to an end last year, 2024.

Cathy: So it’s very recent. So this kind of places us as listeners in like the height of the smartphone, you know, world, right? Like we are, as parents, we have been dealing with what to do, um, as far [00:07:00] as our kids being, you know, so influenced by technology and having the access to the entire world on the phone.

Cathy: Yeah. And the entire world. Having access to our kids on the phone. It’s one thing for our kids to reach out and to, you know, look at porn or to, you know, be on video games all day or whatever it may be that we’re concerned about. But what’s also concerning is who. Is reaching our kids

Todd: well, and the premise of this entire documentary is who is the one, and I think this kind of goes with without saying, but who is the perpetrator?

Todd: Right? And they show you all the potential possibilities. The people who had originally been thought to be the person. And it’s really interesting. And as a viewer you’re like, oh, maybe it’s this kid, or maybe it’s this person, or maybe it’s this person. And then they end up revealing, which we’ll talk about in a little bit.

Todd: And it’s really, um. Satisfying, I guess, to see the reveal.

Cathy: It, it’s it, I would say a lot of documentaries, at least a lot of the ones I’ve lost, I’ve watched in the last couple years. They kind of leave you and they’re like, we never figured it out.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: And you’re like, oh boy. Like, wow.

Todd: Yeah, just hour and a [00:08:00] half and no resolution.

Cathy: Yeah. And they’re like, yep. And didn’t go any further than this. Or this is still ongoing and you’re like, wow, this feels too heavy. And this does have, I wouldn’t say that it’s. Over in the biggest sense of the word, but we do know what happened. Yeah. You know, it’s kind of an ongoing thing. Yeah. It’s satisfying.

Cathy: It’s satisfying in that way. But you know what’s interesting about this as far as setting the scene and thinking about Gen X is you and I grew up with the whole stranger danger thing. I mean, let me step back even further. As a Gen Xer, we actually didn’t grow up with it. We grew up with being able to be outside by ourselves.

Cathy: Had no phones. Parents would say, come home when the street lights go on. Like, we grew up in a, in a time when kids were not checking in.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Okay. Which is interesting because if you look at the stats of things like children being harmed, sexually assaulted, molested, kidnapped, those stats were much higher.

Cathy: Yeah. In the seventies and eighties. If you look at the statistics now, they’re much, much lower. But we still have this stranger danger mentality that people [00:09:00] are gonna steal our kids. I

Todd: pulled up a quick piece on the evolution of an anonymous communication, which the whole premise of this documentary is So, you ready for it?

Todd: Yeah, go ahead. 1950s to the eighties. Okay. Prank calls. Remember the good old days, sweetie?

Cathy: Sweetie, I got a question. Is your refrigerator running? Uh, yeah, then you better go catch it. That was a good one. What else did we do? What

Todd: did we would prank and do what out? Call bowling. Call bowling alleys and ask them if they have 10 pound balls.

Todd: And then you say something like, how do you get around? Or something like that. There’s a lot. How do you get around? It’s

Cathy: a lot of like, or there was one about a toilet too, but they, that’s what we did. It was a little like ding

Todd: door calling a grocery store, asking if they have Prince Albert in a can. I think Prince Albert was some type of food.

Todd: And

Cathy: then we’d say, well let him out. Yeah.

Todd: Right. Yeah.

Cathy: We had a lot of things. We were just,

Todd: we were just crazy. We were so funny.

Cathy: Oh my God. And I think if you’re, if anybody in our generation was honest, all of us, you know, prank called someone at some point.

Todd: [00:10:00] Yeah. So you did on sleepovers?

Cathy: Actually, there was a kid that I went to school with, but he also went to my church and he was making prank calls from my church.

Cathy: And so they did trace it back. Remember tracers?

Todd: Yes.

Cathy: You know, like you’d call the police and you’d keep it them on the phone long enough and then they’d trace it back and it was, they, he was doing it out of our church.

Todd: I’m gonna That’s awesome. I’m gonna go ahead and I know I’m not done talking about anonymous communication, but I do feel the need just to come to remember when you Okay with that.

Cathy: Okay. So we’re gonna go back and forth.

Todd: You, um. I also, I don’t know if this counts, but we used to ding dong ditch.

Cathy: I just, I, you know what, I didn’t get my full sentence out, but I said it was just like, ding don ditching.

Todd: And I remember one time, uh, my friend Peter got caught and peed in his pants when he got caught by the dude.

Todd: If I got ding Don ditched, I’d be like, good

Cathy: for you guys. Well, let me tell you two stories, okay. Number one, and this is all from social media, but two true stories. I’m gonna tell you the sad one first. Oh boy. A kid was shot, oh [00:11:00] geez. About two weeks ago. Dog ditching. Geez. Okay, so stand your ground, right?

Cathy: All that kind of crap. So I’m just gonna tell you that happened. Um, but the second story, and this was on social media and it was the cutest thing. Um, this kid came up to a door. So everyone’s got a ring camera now, right? Yeah. So you can see all this. It’s on video. So this kid comes up to a door and this person opens the door and they’re like, hello?

Cathy: And he is like, hello? And she’s kind of like waiting. And he goes, oh, I’m sorry, I was gonna ding Don ditch you. And he’s like, but you open the door. Like he’s apologizing. And then the funniest part was the, the person at the door is like, does your parent know you’re doing this? And he turns around, he’s like, dad, she wants to know if you know I’m doing this.

Cathy: And he’s like, run, run. So his dad had taken him to Dingdong Ditch. Oh dear. Now. I am going to make an assumption that his dad’s a Gen Xer. Yeah. And is like, you gotta do fun things like I did Yes. When I was a kid. But what I love is that the kid like owned up to it. I might and didn’t run. I might have [00:12:00] it tell Oh my god.

Cathy: Me if this is it. Okay, I will.

Cathy: Oh yeah, I think, I think this is it. May I help you? No. Um, what are you doing here? I’m really sorry. I’m calling you dad. Not you’re out here doing this. I’ll call him right now. Yeah, he does know. I doubt that.

Todd: What

Cathy: dad? Yeah. He goes Dingdong did with you? Yeah. He says it’s a memory and he wants to be a part of it.

Todd: Ru. Oh my God. If that’s a real, um, video and it’s not planned. That is hilarious.

Cathy: I know. We are. So as parents, again, this is so Gen X and [00:13:00] every, I mean, millennials do it too. Boomers did it too. But we so want our children to have our childhood truth.

Cathy: Like we just can’t tolerate if our children don’t have what we had because we then can like relive it through them. You know? I can’t believe you found that. That’s so great.

Todd: That is good.

Cathy: Um, so anyway, are we going back to set the scene?

Todd: Uh, we are going back to set the scene, but can I finish up my Yes, please Go ahead.

Todd: Anonymous communication. Yeah. So in the 1990 sweetie, we got caller ID and Star 69. Thank God Caller id. We know what that is. A little white box.

Cathy: Mm-hmm. I had it on my nightstand

Todd: because before then, if anybody’s gen if, if there’s any millennials or younger. Didn’t wet the phone prank and we didn’t know you just had to answer it.

Todd: We didn’t know who was calling. Yeah. Um, you’d say, hello and then Star 69, what did that do?

Cathy: Uh, you could find out who just called and hung up

Todd: instantly called them back.

Cathy: So if someone pranked you, you would just star 69. And

Todd: I also remember trying to do a party call, a three-way line with my two friends, Uhhuh, and have them just like.

Todd: Catch each [00:14:00] other and like have an awkward conversation. And it never really worked as much as well as I wanted it to.

Cathy: Well, and that was your version. A lot of times girls would do the party line, but then they wouldn’t say that the other girls were on the phone. Oh. Listening to their

Todd: phone. Ne that’s nefarious.

Todd: Yes it was. No, that’s what um, that’s what Kanye did at t Swizzle.

Cathy: He sure did. And that they do that. In mean girls there’s a really good like four, you know, boxes of like they’re on the phone and she’s like, oh, I’m here. And you know, so, and again, I’m maybe boys did that too. I don’t wanna gender it, but there definitely were things like that.

Todd: So the next things which are a little more boring chat rooms and early internet handles. In the nineties. In the two thousands, yeah. Whatever. Text messaging and burner phone Yep. In the two thousands. Yep. And then we get social media and dms. Uh, and you can do those things anonymously as you found out in this documentary.

Todd: You sure

Cathy: can.

Todd: Um, and then in the 2000 tens and twenties. Catfishing and fake profiles. Good old Monte Te. Yeah. Did you see the documentary Monte?

Cathy: [00:15:00] Yeah. He was football player. He was catfished, um, by this guy, but the guy was pretending to be this girl. Yeah. This really beautiful girl. And so Monte, is that how you say his name?

Cathy: Uh, Monte. Monte. M-A-N-T-I-T-E. Apostrophe o. He thought that he had a girlfriend. Yeah. And he was telling everyone he had a girlfriend and turns out it was not.

Todd: And then last thing, uh, deep fakes and al voice cloning ai, voice cloning. And I’m just thinking like reve, like, uh, fake porn too. Like it’s just awful.

Todd: Um.

Cathy: Yeah. And you know, it’s almost too much to like deal with. Yeah. Like, we’re gonna try and stay within the world of this documentary because I get like super uncomfortable thinking about where AI is going. Sure. So I don’t really wanna go there. But what I will say is that for us as parents, we shifted from the, you know, early stranger danger stuff, uh, in the nineties, eighties and nineties to tech danger.

Cathy: Yeah. In this, you know, in the two thousands. So our kids had, there is a danger of having technology. Yeah. [00:16:00] And, you know, um, you know, smart. Todd, can you tell me when the iPhone came out? What year? It was

Todd: the iPhone? I’ll say the first

Cathy: iPhone launched in

Todd: 2005

Cathy: seven.

Todd: Oh, that’s

Cathy: pretty good. And it’s good, I can remember this now because it was when Skyler was born.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Okay. So by the early 2010s, teens started carrying them around everywhere. So I remember JC was in fifth grade when she asked for a phone because her girlfriend had an iPhone. And we were like, no. She didn’t get one for a while, but I remember that was the first time that she was like, can I have that too?

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: And we were like, how are we gonna deal with this thing? You know? Um, do you remember the first time you texted?

Todd: No. Um, I just remember on my Nokia 61 60, you had to press the two button three times to get to the C character. Right? I

Cathy: know, I know. Um, it, it

Todd: was a very long process. Met the inefficient process.

Todd: That’s why Blackberries are so good. ’cause they had a little keyboard on ’em.

Cathy: So Blackberry and [00:17:00] MySpace and flip phones. Um, used to be kind of the thing. And then now we have touchscreens and apps and, you know, 24 7 expectation that we’re always on, um, social media. Facebook came out in, uh, Facebook,

Todd: uh, I’ll say the same year as, um.

Todd: As the iPhone 2007,

Cathy: close 2006, Instagram came in 2010, Snapchat in 2011. And you know, we parents were just, you know, we were kind of in that world. Our kids were little. We were just starting to realize that that screen time was starting to mean different things. Like I remember like screen time when our kids were really little was just watching tv.

Cathy: Right. And then it became like, oh, the schools are using screens now too. Yeah. Like, they’re getting like the, what are those called, those flip books? What are they called?

Todd: Uh, those

Cathy: little computers. They get,

Todd: uh, they’re I iPads.

Cathy: Well, no, it’s not an iPad. It’s something, it’s called something else. But does, we’re not coming up the surface.

Cathy: No, they’re, it’s a black, that computer that they all get and we have to buy it. Laptops. Well, yeah, it’s a laptop, but there’s another word for it, but it doesn’t matter [00:18:00] ’cause it’s irrelevant. It’s erroneous. Erroneous. Um, and so it was like a whole new, you know, a whole new world for parenting. Um, and, you know.

Cathy: The the fear, like I remember the first time the parents started to talk to me about, Hey, my kid’s playing a video game. They’re playing Fortnite, or they’re playing something else and they’re meeting friends on their headsets and they’re like, they have these pair of social relationships with people.

Cathy: And then the parent would figure out that one of the people they were talking to was actually 40 years old. Yeah. And so things started to get a really, and I shouldn’t say things started to get, this is still happening worse, but things get got really messy. And then the last thing I wanna talk about in terms of this documentary is small town dynamics.

Cathy: Now I grew up in a small town. People may not think it’s a small town because Northern Illinois University is there. So it is a university town. I grew up in DeKalb, Illinois, but we didn’t, it felt like a small town to us, meaning we didn’t really associate with the university. You kind of knew everybody.

Cathy: You know, [00:19:00] you pull up to a stoplight, you look to the left and the right, you know, everybody like, you know, you knew who ran the stores. That’s just small time di you know, small town dynamics. And, um, in a close community there is a lot of gossip. There’s rumors, uh, people watching each other talking about each other.

Cathy: Um, sometimes private conflicts become more public, you know, conversations and, um, you know. That plays a big role in this documentary as well, is kind

Todd: of the small town dynamics. Well, and I would say if this happened in, I, I’m guessing this isn’t a wealthy small town, and if it was wealthier, I have a feeling, um, there’d be more attention, more resources would’ve been, um, directed to figuring this out.

Cathy: Yeah. With the guest. I think that that’s probably true. I think that there is, it’s probably middle class. I know we’re, we have a very disappearing middle class, but, you know, people were working, it wasn’t like a community that seemed to [00:20:00] have lost their Yeah. You know, you know, sometimes you, a power plant goes away or something, or some kind of plant goes away and then everyone loses their job.

Cathy: It wasn’t like that, but it was small enough that, um, it may. You can see that the parents are overinvested in their children’s lives. Yeah. They have a lot of information. They know all the other parents, you know, there’s a lot of feeling like everything’s happening to them. So that’s set the scene.

Todd: All right.

Todd: Um, Rowan, and I’m sorry, remember when, or did we just

Cathy: a little bit of remember when, I remember when

Todd: do, do, do, what are we gonna reveal? I feel like I wanna reveal and tell them who did it?

Cathy: Wait, tell. ’cause I, let’s get through a few random facts. Okay. And then we’ll do it. So in real soon, everybody in the next five, 10 minutes.

Cathy: Um, one thing, I don’t know if you can pull this up, but can you pull up like an a OL Screech?

Todd: Uh oh yeah. Yeah. I Do you remember that sound? I do. We

Cathy: were just like connecting, you know, like to when you would wanna connect to your email or to [00:21:00] wifi or whatever, like the patience we used to have to have, like, this is totally my remember when is that we were all in on, okay, let’s have these phones and let’s have this technology.

Cathy: But man. It took forever.

Cathy: Oh my God.

Todd: I remember being excited. I’m like, I’m fucking get online. Me

Cathy: too. But then sometimes it would go BB and it would like crap out.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So sometimes you wouldn’t get online. Um, just like a small, um, remember when you got mail? Oh, there’s my mail, there’s my email. You got mail. I’d be so excited. I remember like, cool people had two emails.

Cathy: They had like their a OL and then they had their work email and I was like, that’s so cool.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Now I have like eight emails. Way too many. Yeah, too many. Um, but I remember just as far as like technology and it becoming a part of our lives and kind of figuring out what was real. I did a internship at the Illinois Eye Clinic here, um, in, when I was in grad [00:22:00] school, and it was the year that the Blair Witch Project came out and.

Cathy: It was like a perfect time for a movie like that to come out because there was a website, which I used to think they were saying wet site, um, and didn’t know what a web was, but I would, there was a wet site that was all about the Blair Witch and they were, they weren’t telling it. They, they weren’t giving enough information to know if it was a true story or not a true story, or if these people were real, or if it was they were actors or if it was a documentary.

Cathy: And this website kind of created this lore mm-hmm. That, um, that I would try and connect to. The reason I was talking about being at the Eye Clinic is because I remember I had this office in the basement and I would try and connect ’cause I wanted to read about the Blair Witch. Um, and then it would always, again, it would crap out.

Cathy: It was probably ’cause I was in a basement and we did go see the movie and there was still some question whether it was real. Do you remember? I do Now. People would know in two seconds.

Todd: This is Blair Witch sounds. [00:23:00] Maybe this is the, the,

Cathy: the. The, what’s it called? Soundtrack or whatever.

Todd: Yeah, something like that.

Todd: I wanted to hear her, um, freak out,

Cathy: but with the

Todd: no dice

Cathy: with the phone. What is she talking? Oh, the camera. She’s, yes. Still got a video camera. Um, so let’s talk about your Nokia. Do you remember you would play snake?

Todd: Yes. I loved snake. It was kinda like centine, not centipede. ’cause centipede was different, but just don’t run into your own tail.

Todd: Yeah. And, um,

Cathy: and like eat more.

Todd: Eat this. Yeah. Eat more pellets and then your tail will get longer, which make it more difficult not to eat your own, not to hit yourself.

Cathy: When Todd and I would first, when we were first going on dates, I remember when I’d go to the bathroom, I’d come back. You’d always be playing snake.

Cathy: Yeah. It’s fun. It’s just like an ingrained memory of core memory, you know?

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Um, so my first phone, I will just, this is real quick before we go into the, you know, random facts about this documentary I got, I. My first job, my boss gave me a bag phone and said, ’cause I had to drive around a lot. And he’s like, just keep this in your car.

Cathy: And I put it [00:24:00] in my car and it never once worked. What’s a bag

Todd: phone? I never even heard of it. It

Cathy: was a phone in a bag and you were supposed to plug it in like to the cigarette lighter? Yeah, when we had cigarette lighters instead of these, you know, these other little power things? We have

Todd: receptacles.

Cathy: They’re not receptacles. Yes they are. What is that word? It’s like a

Todd: adapter

Cathy: where we put this end of the called a receptacle babe. Okay. It’s not, is it really? Are you be making fun of me.

Todd: Uh, it’s, it’s, think about it, trash recept receptacles where something, where you put trash inside the container. True.

Todd: Pad Cord is a receptacle.

Cathy: Okay. I don’t know if I agree, but I’m just gonna roll with it. ’cause you seem pretty committed to it. Yeah. Um, and so anyway, I had this bag phone and I remember my friends would be like, well let’s use it. And I’d be like, I don’t know how it works. So it kind of wasn’t doing what it was supposed to, which was work, you know, or like be helpful.

Cathy: And then I think I had a phone that sucked really bad. And then I feel like we got together and I got my first razor phone and it was pink. Oh [00:25:00] yeah. It was, that’s a big deal. It was huge. And it was my first phone that actually like worked. And that was the first phone I texted on. My friend Megan Lee is like, just text me.

Cathy: And I’m like, what do you mean? Mm-hmm. And then I figured out how to do that. So it’s like, now things are so normal, but they were just not, it just, we just lived such a different way. You and I.

Todd: What a great story.

Cathy: Hey, I’m doing, remember when

Todd: that was mean? But I, I happen to find a sound clip.

Cathy: A

Todd: great story.

Cathy: Okay. That’s

Todd: from Parenthood.

Cathy: Um, but you should use that always during, remember when?

Todd: Yes.

Cathy: Okay. So do we want to jump into, let, let’s reveal we’re 25 minutes in. Let’s tell the story and then reveal. Right? Go ahead, go ahead. So Kim, so we’re, now we’re going into like, instead of random facts, just facts of this case.

Cathy: Are we ready? Yeah. Okay. So play our ax here. Do you know the human head weighs eight pounds? Alright. Okay. So again, setting, just like you did Lauren and her boyfriend Owen, they were often referred to as the [00:26:00] town’s golden couple.

Todd: Yikes.

Cathy: Starting around. I know. They were so young. See what I mean? Yeah. Like that’s too young to be like focused on kids who are dating.

Cathy: Yeah. Starting around October, 2020. Both of them started getting anonymous texts from an unknown number, thus the title of the documentary, this Falsely, and that they mostly were focused around implying that Owen was cheating on Lauren. Okay? Like, he doesn’t love you, he loves me. He’s cheating on you. He’s gonna break up with you.

Cathy: That’s how it started, all this harassment. It paused for a little bit, but then returned with extreme escalation like months later. Like you said, 40 to 50 threatening messages daily. And the messages not only were like so cruel about Lauren’s appearance, but they also told Lauren to kill herself and pressured her in these, like, emotionally

Todd: brutal, think of like the worst things you could say to somebody.

Todd: Yeah. And just assume that I, I literally, I can look it up, but I don’t even wanna say these words. They’re so horrific.

Cathy: Well, and it’s funny because the people who were investigating it, [00:27:00] the principal and the, the police officer, the sheriff and everybody, they’re like, uh, this was a little much for us. Yeah.

Cathy: Right. Like, we would read them and be uncomfortable. So the authorities launched an invest an investigation in 2022. Um, and that took a while. I, I mean, I’m just gonna give like my. Parent opinion without having all the details. I felt like they were trying to handle it themselves for too long. Way too.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: I mean like that’s one of my, not even a hot take, it’s a regular take. It’s like this should have been solved right away.

Cathy: Yeah. If not completely solved, like jumped on and not disregarded. Like, these kids are getting 50 texts a day and there were so many ways that we could have, like

Todd: most of my energy was being directed in how to, if this happened to our daughter, how would I handle it?

Todd: And it wasn’t as much like who did it. It’s like, this seems stupid. Like how there’s so many different ways to go about this. Right? One is. Get yourself a different phone number, right? Another is hand out [00:28:00] that and use that number just to a certain amount of people because like some of it’s like kill yourself, like some of ’em is like awful things.

Todd: So it’s worth not having access to your friends for a bit to text and call and do all the things. But there’s, I

Cathy: think what the parents would say because they did suggest this at certain points and I is there like the we, this person who’s sending the text seems to have a lot of information about what’s going on during the school day.

Cathy: Like, oh, I saw you in class, or I saw you at the basketball game. So it’s most likely somebody who is going to gain access to the new phone number as well. So are we spinning our wheels by getting a new phone number over and over again? And that is, and the

Todd: answer is, first you start with the people that are most close to you.

Todd: Yeah. And say, don’t give it to anybody. Right. And the minute it gets out to another circle of people, then you know it has hit that person. So there’s so many different ways of doing it.

Cathy: We’re just saying like one of, ’cause Todd and I talked about it afterwards, like just saying like. [00:29:00] Let’s go back for a little bit to the old school razor phone.

Cathy: Yes. Where you can only, you can’t get text messages. Yeah. You can’t receive texts, but you can call your friends. And again, it, you know, and a lot of the parents said this, this is part of the like, being too overinvested. The parents are like, I don’t think I should have to get my kid another phone. You know, they wanted their kids to stay socially connected.

Todd: Meanwhile, your daughter’s being threatened with physical violence,

Cathy: right? So there’s a lot of like, you know, wait, come on, parent. There, there’s a lot of things happening at once. Smarten up. Um, so, so eventually the sheriff finally who we were, was an in, he was an interesting character. Not

Todd: helpful,

Cathy: not as helpful as you.

Cathy: People would come into his office and he’d be like, now he’d basically be like, did you do this? And they’d be like, no. And he’d be like, okay, we’ll see you later. So eventually. This guy involves the FBI when he, the other, the thing we were making fun of Todd, was he like, put together a binder of every single text messages.

Cathy: Yeah. The text message that had been sent. And the binder was like huge. It was like huge. And [00:30:00] Todd’s like, he doesn’t really need to do that. Like, you can put it on a screen, like why is he printing ’em out? And he’d be like, I’d read through ’em every day to see if I could find something. And we’re like, that’s, anyway, he finds freaking helpful.

Cathy: You know that he’s a fucking asshole.

Todd: Oh boy. What’s sad? I don’t know. I just found his angry computer guy. Sounds And that’s for the sheriff? That’s, he is definitely, the sheriff is just like, and he and he, he agreed to do this documentary after I know after it made him look like he didn’t know how to handle this case.

Cathy: I think he thought he did a good job. I, I think like as I watched

Todd: him 20 months later, dude, the FBI guy figured it out after a week.

Cathy: Yeah, well now the FBI had access to things that the sheriff didn’t have access to.

Todd: The sheriff needs to know his own limitations.

Cathy: I know, but he should. It was just seeing certain things like the, the sheriff would be like, you know, we think it’s a group and I’m gonna figure out where the groups are, whatever.

Cathy: I’m like, there’s groups everywhere. Yeah. Like it could be these three, these four anyway,

Todd: not helpful. Let’s stay positive people. [00:31:00]

Cathy: Exactly. Yeah. It was not helpful at all. So eventually the FBI liaison this guy named Bradley. Peter was, he was good, right? Well, like right when he came on the screen, you’re like, okay, something good is gonna happen here.

Cathy: There’s an adult

Todd: in the room. Yeah.

Cathy: Somebody’s gonna help. And this is like 45 minutes into the documentary, maybe 50 minutes. So I found that interesting too, is that there was still another 45 minutes to go, right. And I was like, oh, we’re gonna get an answer here. So basically what this FBI guy did is he subpoenaed the data, which is what you’re supposed to do, traced.

Cathy: Like the calls. Um, and then got, you know, was able to find this thing called pinger and I think that’s what it was called, and figured out the Verizon phone number it was coming from.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So right now, if you are listening to this and you have not watched this documentary, then we will see you after you have, you know, so we’re gonna say goodbye to you.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: And so, bye. Do you wanna Bye. That

Todd: is the dividing.

Cathy: Bye.

Todd: Anything that happens after that clap, you are [00:32:00] risking the

Cathy: answer.

Todd: Answer.

Cathy: So Todd, would you like to say who they figured out the number belonged to? I

Todd: don’t know. I feel like I don’t even know how to do it justice. It’s so crazy and part of me wants to play that scene of when they figure it out.

Todd: But why don’t you say it now? I’ll try to find the scene.

Cathy: Okay. I will tell you this part, because it’s kind of part of what makes the documentary interesting. Yeah. Because you are watching them, you know, interview all these other kids, this girl named Chloe, this girl named Macy. All these other people who go to the school and they seem to have some, or this poor girl named Adriana or Ariana, who’s like just didn’t do anything.

Cathy: And they’re like, take, you know, the police are interviewing her. Poor thing. She’s so traumatized. So there’s been a lot of blame placed on other people. And so you’re kind of still in that mindset that people are being blamed wrongly and then all of a sudden. The FBI guy says I traced this number back and this phone number belongs to Kendra.

Cathy: Ari, which is [00:33:00] Lauren’s mother.

Todd: All right. You ready for it? I

Cathy: am.

Todd: And the FBI got involved. We come up with some stuff that comes back to you.

Cathy: What do you mean

Todd: the message is coming in, originating from you?

Cathy: No.

Todd: Every message that went to the kids, your number come back through Kenry or whatever it is, the app that was trying to hide it.

Todd: You So at this moment I’m like, maybe her phone was being stolen by somebody else. I still

Cathy: believed her innocence. Me too. So I’m thinking to myself, oh my God, this person is so smart that they’re having this phone number go through Kendra LA’s phone number. Yeah. You know? And that, that is somebody’s hacking into it.

Cathy: Again, remember, we’re only 50 minutes into the dock, so there’s so much time that you’re like, this person is being blamed and they can’t be Lauren’s mom. ’cause let’s be clear, Lauren is the girl getting the texts.

Todd: Yes.

Cathy: This is her mother.

Todd: And the mom has been in this documentary the whole time saying, we gotta figure out who these awful people are.

Todd: She’s part, she’s one of the storytellers. Yes. Okay, so keep going. Your number, even though it was being hid, showed [00:34:00] up every single message.

Cathy: My number.

Todd: Yep. Is it, does it have to do with Owen? Is there an infatuation there with Owen?

Cathy: Nothing like that.

Todd: Okay. Then just tell me what, what, you know, did he treat Lauren bad?

Todd: I mean,

Cathy: um,

Todd: I mean, something serious because it went on for a while, right?

Cathy: Yeah. And it didn’t start that way,

Todd: and I’m sure didn’t, so at that moment I’m like, oh my God, did she just admit to it? So,

Cathy: and

Todd: that’s okay. Just start from the beginning. So they were dating and then they started, they broke up. So how did, how did it really start?

Todd: Like why did it start af Did it start during, when they were still dating? Did, was they treating you bad?

Cathy: But it, like, it didn’t, the first one didn’t start like,

Todd: all right, so she’s lying there.

Cathy: Okay. So then she starts to kind of go off the rails and there’s a whole thing. Yeah. But what I will say is that what Todd just said is exactly how I felt.

Cathy: I was like, when he started questioning her, I’m like, it’s not her, but she’s gonna be like, [00:35:00] oh my God, so overwhelmed and it’s gonna, you know, it’s gonna be this distraction. And then all of a sudden she starts saying, yeah, I did. And that police officer, that guy. Did an exceptional job. Yeah. Not making her run away from the truth.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: He basically said, we know it’s you. He was

Todd: assuming,

Cathy: and he’s like, is it about Owen? You know, like, because there the texts were pretty explicit saying like, Owen’s mine, Owen’s gonna, you know, basically a lot of sexual fantasy with Owen. So she, he’s like, are you infatuated? And again, let’s remember this kid’s like 13, 14, 15, 16.

Cathy: Like this is, he’s somewhere in those years, I can’t remember exactly how old, but he, it’s so inappropriate. And she’s like, no, it’s not that. And he, I bet in his own mind he was like, oh my god.

Todd: Yeah,

Cathy: she did it.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: And so, so I watched it and then Todd watched it and I kept looking at Todd like, do you understand?

Cathy: Do you understand? Yeah. Like I knew you understood, but it was so shocking.

Todd: I know. And her demeanor was so [00:36:00] interesting. I know. ’cause now having watched that scene a second time, you can see the guilt in her eyes and all that. Yeah. But when I’ve watched it the first time, I thought she was like trying to figure out like, what’s happening here?

Todd: Right. Yeah. So anyway.

Cathy: Well, and this is what I’ll say because this scene goes on, um. Where they bring Lauren in and tell her, um, what happened. And I wrote something that came out last Friday about, um, this documentary and about understanding what disassociation is. Okay. Um, disassociation is a clinical term.

Cathy: It’s often used now in mainstream, but basically it just is a protection. Um, it’s like a trauma response. So when something really significant happens, um, you get awful information. You get, you know, you see something that’s overwhelming. You are triggered by something extreme. Um, maybe even get into a car extent or something like that.

Cathy: The brain protects [00:37:00] itself and kind of gets you to a place of real calm where you can’t really even feel what’s happening. It’s disassociation is exactly what the word means. You, you, you disconnect. From the experience you’re having so you can keep moving forward. Yeah. And it’s a protection mechanism.

Cathy: You know, it’s often talked about, um, when children are, um, harmed, molested, taken advantage of in some way. Kids will often talk about that. They feel like they get out of their body. It happens with women who’ve been raped, maybe men who are being abused in some way, where they almost feel completely disconnected from their body and they’re watching themselves have this experience, but they’re not feeling it.

Cathy: Yeah. That is an extreme form of disassociation and why it’s important to understand is it is a protection. It is your brain doing exactly what it’s supposed to be to survive. It keeps you from drowning. And so I feel like in that scene, two things are happening. Kendra, Lauren’s mom [00:38:00] is in shock and is potentially disassociating from what’s going on.

Cathy: She has been caught. Mm-hmm. Right. And when Lauren comes in and she finds out what’s happening. It gets really uncomfortable because her mom starts hugging her while she’s getting this information.

Todd: Yeah, and think about that. Like pause there. The woman, the person who’s been sending these awful, awful things for 22 months,

Cathy: telling her to kill herself,

Todd: telling her to kill herself, telling her she’s ugly, telling, saying all these awful things is now consoling her

Cathy: correct and saying, I can’t leave her.

Cathy: I need to take care of her. Which we’re gonna get into. Uh, fictitious disorder by proxy. We’re gonna talk about that in a, you know, down the road here. But that’s a whole nother thing. But what, what’s so important to understand about Lauren is what I recognized when I started reading more about this, um, documentary and this experience that happened.

Cathy: This thing that happened is a lot of people are like, Lauren didn’t freak out, therefore she must have been a part of it. Or Lauren didn’t have the reaction, [00:39:00] I think she should have had, therefore she knew what her mom was doing and was a part of it. And that’s, you know, I don’t know what happened, but I would bet 99% that Lauren knew nothing that was going on and that she was having a disassociation.

Cathy: Yeah. She was experiencing disassociation.

Todd: It made more sense as I was thinking about who who’d done it. Yeah. That Lauren was doing this to garner attention Correct. To herself like that, that I could buy. The fact that it was the mom was such a huge twist.

Cathy: Yes. Yeah. Such a huge shock. And so for those of you who, and this is not just Lauren, for those of you who watch women who have been assaulted and they talk about it during an interview or you are watch, you’re talking to someone who’s had a really traumatic experience and you’re thinking to yourself, they’re not reacting the way I think they should.

Cathy: They’re not crying or they’re not freaking out, therefore they must be lying. You don’t understand what trauma response looks like. Most of the people, most of the women and girls I talk to, [00:40:00] because they’re coming to me in trauma, that’s what they’re like.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: They talk about it really matter of fact.

Cathy: They like have really wide open eyes. But there, there’s this piece that I feel like people miss. They’re somewhat robotic and disconnected. Like Lauren continues to do interviews throughout the, you know, the rest of the documentary. And she will talk about these things that are so traumatic in such a matter of fact way.

Cathy: And that is. That’s what happens in trauma. And not only that, but this is something really important to understand because we talk about not believing women when things have happened to them. When a woman has something happen to them that’s really extreme, like we’ll say a rape or a molestation or something like that, some kind of physical danger or a emotional danger, they, their, their brain goes into a place where they, if they do disassociate to handle what’s happening, and then their memory is not online.

Cathy: Their memory becomes really patchy. They can’t put together the whole day. Like I, I have a friend who I’ve been talking to [00:41:00] just in the last couple months who has recognized that she’s, uh, been experiencing emotional abuse and one of the things that she will say is, it’s helpful that people are now telling me stories, things they saw that happened to me.

Cathy: ’cause I don’t remember them. Yeah. My brain did not process them. Sure. I just, either it didn’t become a memory or I jumped right over it in the moment. And that’s normal trauma response. So sometimes when we are interviewing women, maybe about something that happened to them, and we’ll say, what did you wear that day?

Cathy: What time was it? Where did you go? They don’t remember. Their brain shut down. Their brain was processing. And keeping them from being too overly harmed. Yeah. And then you add on years, then you add on, will this happened five years ago? Or how don’t you know what you had? How do you not know what you had for lunch?

Cathy: How do you not know who drove home with you? That is completely not trauma informed.

Todd: Would it be a bad time for I I, because it was such a plot twist for me. Yes. And for you, which is why you, I could just tell you, you were [00:42:00] excited about this documentary. I’m like, I was like, this is shocking. Well, and you as a mother, like, can you imagine from mother to daughter relationship?

Todd: This does not make any sense. So I did a, a quick, uh, list of top movie plot twist. Oh, I bet. I know some of ’em. Um, why don’t you go ahead and guess and I’ll, and you tell me the name. I’ll tell you if it’s in, is it top 10? Don’t say the Twist though, because I won’t, I don’t wanna ruin it, but yeah, it’s, I have 10 of them.

Todd: Okay. So the sixth sense, boom, that’s number one. Okay. The crying Game. That’s not it that was in there, but I removed it ’cause I never seen it. But yeah, crying game was in there. That’s a

Cathy: huge plot twist. Um, let’s see. Uh, I’m trying to think of things that are not M Night Shalon. Are there other M Night Shalon movies in there?

Cathy: No. Okay. Um, oh, TV or movies? Uh, movies. But then I also

Todd: did tv. Movies are more interesting though.

Cathy: I know. I need

Todd: hints. Um, I, uh, Brad Pitt. [00:43:00] Oh. Fight Club though. That’s number two. Okay. Uh, Kevin Spacey. Uh, these are suspects. That’s number three. Okay. Um, Anthony Hopkins, or no, Anthony, whatever his name is from the, uh, sixties.

Cathy: Anthony from the sixties.

Todd: Anthony.

Cathy: Anthony Psycho. Oh, Norman Bates. Yeah. Psycho. Okay. Anthony what? Uh, Perkins.

Todd: Anthony Perkins. Mm-hmm. Uh, what’s in the box?

Cathy: Oh, um, that is called, uh, that’s called seven. I Am Your Father. Uh, that would be the Empire Strikes Back.

Todd: Um, good for you. You Marty. Marty. Is that on there?

Todd: Yes,

Cathy: we’ve said that. We’ve said Good for you Marty. A few times on this podcast. And I only diehards get it because that’s from the movie. Primal Fear. That’s Edward Norton.

Todd: Um, I’ve only seen this once, but Gone Girl.

Cathy: Sure. Um, yeah, that’s a huge twist in the middle. And if you read the book, you had the same, you know, experience.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Um, number 10 is Memento.

Cathy: Sure. [00:44:00]

Todd: I love that. Uh, that’s

Cathy: such, we liked that. We were, that movie was really interesting. Really

Todd: good movie. Is that,

Cathy: who was that? Was that Fincher? Who, who did that?

Todd: Uh, I don’t know. I know Guy. Guy Richie. Is that the actor?

Cathy: Not Guy Richie. That was Madonna’s husband. Guy Pierce.

Todd: Guy Pierce. I dunno. Um, and then Get out when I, yeah, there’s a moment. Well, I don’t wanna ruin it. Even though it was eight years ago, but Get Out is probably one of my favorite movies ever made.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: It so good. It’s extremely. Um, so those are really good. Top 20 TV plot twists.

Cathy: Oh gosh, Todd, you’re gonna have to do the same thing ’cause my brain just can’t take it all in.

Todd: Um, for, and I don’t know if these are plot twists, but we have to go back. Kate,

Cathy: uh, lost

Todd: Yes. Which

Cathy: was a great

Todd: plot twist. Great. You and I were freaking out. Right. Because we assumed it was a flashback, but it was a flash forward. Um, Sopranos Sure. The end. That’s not a plot twist, it’s just an interesting ending.

Todd: Okay. Um, I don’t know what episode is, but season one of this is Us.

Cathy: Oh yeah. He [00:45:00] Jack,

Todd: yeah. Mm-hmm.

Cathy: Jack Crockpot. Everybody unplug your crockpot,

Todd: uh, succession.

Cathy: Yeah. The last season.

Todd: Logan.

Cathy: Logan. Don’t say it.

Todd: Uh, and then finally the Americans.

Cathy: Yeah. The

Todd: end or the train. I just think of the train.

Cathy: The train Man, that daughter, she, she trained to become speaking of train.

Cathy: Yeah. She trained to become just like her mom.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: And then she didn’t do it.

Todd: Um, and then the top seven of Todd’s worst parents in movies. You ready? Oh my gosh. I’m so excited. Um, I love these lists. I figured you would. Um, the mom from Tangled not so great.

Cathy: Well, she wasn’t really the mom. She kidnapped her.

Todd: Oh, she did? Mm-hmm. You’re right. Uh, she’s a kidnapper. So she was the mom, parent figure, uh, Peter and Kate McAllister. Do you know who they’re, they are from home alone. Very good. But they,

Cathy: that was weird. I know. They, they counted. There was a kid who got involved in, anyway. I, I’m a little, I’ve got a little [00:46:00] bit of like, empathy for those parents.

Cathy: Yeah. We’ve all been there.

Todd: Yeah. Getting old. I mean,

Cathy: I’ve never left my kid upstairs in his bedroom when I’ve gone on a trip, but I still get it. What about. Mine. Mrs. V, an old friend of the Christie’s. It’s Jason’s mom. Yes. Jason Vor. He’s mom. She was a little pissed off that the, uh, campers were, um, having sex while her son was drowning in the lake.

Todd: She sure was.

Cathy: She sure was. She ended up, her head ended up in someone’s fridge,

Todd: uh, later. What about, oh, I can’t find it. Um, Jack Torrance

Cathy: The Shining.

Todd: Very good. Not a good dad.

Cathy: Well all work. No play. Yes. Makes Jack a dull boy. Sure does. Um, he was, um, possess. He was demonically possessed, don’t you think? Or ghostly de uh, he was depressed.

Cathy: And you know, Stephen King talks about how he wrote that book. Um, ’cause Stephen King [00:47:00] didn’t love the movie, but he wrote the book about his addiction. And that really it was him being in the throes of alcoholism. Um, I’m not gonna hurt, I’m not gonna hurt Jeff. I’m just gonna bash your brains.

Todd: Something to you. Whenever you come in here and interrupt me. You’re breaking my

Cathy: concentration. You’re distracting me. That will then take

Todd: time to

Cathy: get

Todd: where I

Cathy: understand. Sweet. That’s what I tell you when I’m writing. I’m like, you’re distracting me. I try not to do that. Um, poor Shelly. Um, yeah, Deval, he was traumatized.

Cathy: She had that really high voice. She was like, she was olive oil.

Todd: Get you a sandwich. Uh, it was olive oil. She was. More plot twist

Cathy: one of your Be Dunaway baby. Very good

Todd: sweetie. All done.

Cathy: And then, but that’s [00:48:00] actually her daughter who says that? That’s Christine, right?

Todd: Uh, I don’t know.

Cathy: Or I can’t remember what her daughter’s name was. Uh, but her, her daughter’s saying that because she’s not one of her fans. Yeah. Uh, um, what’s her name?

Cathy: Mommy Dearest. She.

Cathy: Ever. She didn’t like wire hangers. Yikes. Um, she was against them.

Todd: And then, uh, Norman Bates’s mom is the, or no, Norman Bates is the worst. But it Was he even a mom? Norman Bates’s mother? Well, he was being

Cathy: his mother. Oh, what? His mom, his mother was dead. Oh, mom. And she lived, did he kill? Uh, I can’t remember that part, but he kept her body down there.

Cathy: And he would dress up like his mother.

Todd: Yeah. And pretend to be his mother. All right. So now it’s time for me to get back. Stay on target. Yeah. Let’s stay on

Cathy: target with the unknown number. Let’s get back to, so we have now disclosed, you know, as, you know, the, the shocking twist. And so, um, and so that all that body cam footage of [00:49:00] watching Kendra own up to it and then watching Lauren, let me get back to what I was talking about.

Cathy: Disassociation is Lauren doesn’t have a response. No. She looks dead eyed. Yeah. And shocked. And overwhelmed. But she doesn’t have a response now. It’s interesting watching it for the second time with you. She, because Kendra, her mom keeps saying, I didn’t do the first ones. I just did the last ones. Yeah.

Cathy: Meaning she, she claims that someone else did the first text in. Later on, a couple scenes later, Lauren says, no, I think my mom did the whole thing.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So she’s very aware of what her mom did.

Todd: Totally messed up.

Cathy: Okay, so do you wanna talk about the legal aftermath? Sure. Okay. You do You wanna do it? No, you go.

Cathy: You want me to do it? Okay. So, Kendra was arrested in December, 2022. She pled guilty to stalking related charges. So basically I think it was like, um, felony stalking or something. Um, she received a sentence that ranged from 19 months to five years in [00:50:00] prison. She ended up doing 18 months, I think. So anytime you get like a prison sentence of five years, you can usually cut it in half.

Todd: You usually

Cathy: get

Todd: out, cut it a lot less than that. Yeah. Um, that belongs in the, uh, boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got outta hand fast. It jumped up a notch. The dad didn’t it so that, that belongs in the WTF category.

Cathy: I agree. And this is part of the WTF as well that she was released on parole, uh, August, 2024.

Cathy: So a year ago. Yeah. So she’s been out. Um, so obviously Lauren’s dad, um, I can’t remember his name, but he, you see him too. He comes home and you see him get the news and he handles

Todd: it. Uh, I would freak out and he keeps his wits about it.

Cathy: I think this is what I’m talking about with disassociation and being in shock.

Cathy: People think they would freak out. Yeah. But I don’t think. People freak out that often.

Todd: You’re right. Yeah.

Cathy: I think they later freak out. Meaning that part of [00:51:00] disassociation or shock or trauma I, I Is that you let it out later.

Todd: I’ve heard stories of a plane that looks like it’s going down and everybody’s quiet.

Todd: Correct.

Cathy: I heard that

Todd: too. It’s so interesting

Cathy: that the, basically the captain’s like, I don’t know if we’re gonna be able to land whatever. And the plane is completely silent.

Todd: Yeah. Versus we’re an airplane. An airplane be airplane. Everybody’s like just going crazy.

Cathy: And there was a gratuitous shot of a woman who lost her shirt somewhere along the way.

Cathy: She did. People love that scene. People meaning all the boys I grew up with.

Todd: Yes.

Cathy: Who like to watch that part of the movie. It’s an important scene. Yes. Um, so basically. Where things are left is he gets a divorce, they get Kendra and her husband have a get a divorce. Obviously they were already struggling.

Cathy: Like another piece that they talk about is they were already living apart. They were already living apart and they had all these financial difficulties. Kendra had been telling her husband and everybody else that she was working at Ferris State, which is a university there and that she had another job somewhere else and [00:52:00] Texas.

Cathy: In Texas and she wasn’t working at all. She was waking up every day and just sending these text messages.

Todd: Yeah. ’cause there’s over 20,000 of them.

Cathy: Correct. In the big binder. Remember the sheriff’s big binder, he printed it out thousand texts. Um, and she was in it so she understood how to do this. Like

Todd: yeah.

Todd: If you figured out to circumvent then the system make it unknown

Cathy: to for at least a time. Um, so that’s what happened to them. And here’s the crazy thing, um. The crazy thing is, is that Lauren and her mom stayed in touch while her mom was in prison. Um, it’s actually not that crazy. That is more common than people may think.

Todd: Yeah. Don’t, don’t victims, uh, sometimes have compassion for the perpetrators. Right. Is that kind of what’s happening here or what?

Cathy: I mean, it’s so much deeper than that because Sure, we can say that they have compassion, but they’ve usually had a relationship with their parents. That’s so, um, messed up, messed up already that these [00:53:00] things, of course, they’re still shocking and overwhelming, but they’ve already accepted so much of what their parent is like, and their parent have somehow convinced them that without them they would be lost or.

Cathy: They convinced the child that the parent would not be okay. Yeah. Unless the child takes care of them. Yeah. And that they will lose them and or that it’s the kid’s job to take care of the parent. There’s all this, and I, I’m keeping myself from using the word brainwashing because that’s thrown around too much, but there really is a manipulation that happens.

Cathy: Well, you

Todd: said a cult of one, right? Yeah. It’s

Cathy: a cult of one emotional, abusive relationships of any type. If they’re like romantic or if it’s, you know, it’s your part, your spouse, or if it’s parent to child, it can be really culty.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: And it is really culty and like Todd said, it’s really just a cult of one where it’s like you feel this connection to this person in such a way that it’s kind of beyond other people’s comprehension and it’s because they’ve convinced you or you’re, they, they hear your [00:54:00] neural pathways in your brain have been built around protecting this Sure.

Cathy: Relationship. So Lauren is not she, it’s her mother. Right.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: It’s a mom, a manipulative mother,

Todd: and probably plenty of memories of how this mom nurtured her and fed her and clothed her and did all these things,

Cathy: and then used those things that she did to make, she used them as weapons. Yeah. Like, I did this for you.

Cathy: Sure. Do you remember the text that Kendra gets or that, uh, Lauren gets from Kendra that they showed on the screen? No, Ken. So they showed a text that, or an email or something that Kendra sent her daughter from prison. And it said something like, I was mad at you this morning. You said goodbye. Oh yeah, that’s true.

Cathy: But not, I love you. And then parentheses, but I forgive you. Yeah. I mean that in itself,

Todd: ladies got problems.

Cathy: Yeah. That is a, that is manipulating. That is trying to, yeah. That’s emotionally abusive. That’s trying to make her daughter feel guilty about something. I mean, you’re in prison for [00:55:00] sending text messages.

Cathy: You know, one thing we didn’t explain what, ’cause we’re kind of all over the place talking about this documentary. She, this woman Kendra, who’s in prison, she also started texting Owen’s new girlfriend’s. Yeah, mother. So she wasn’t just texting Owen and Kendra, she started texting whoever Owen was dating.

Cathy: Yeah. Plus that girl’s mother.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So when she says she didn’t have an infatuation with Owen, this is not true.

Todd: Well, and she shared that she was raped when she was 17. Correct. And one of the theories is that her emotional maturity ceased it. It got stunted. Yeah. But even so, and I heard this on the podcast that you shared with me this morning.

Todd: She was 17 when that happened. Yet she got involved with her daughters and her daughter’s boyfriend when they were 14.

Cathy: Yeah. And that you’re right, like it, it isn’t, it [00:56:00] doesn’t match up completely. But that’s, that can be kind of, uh, I see The brain doesn’t nervous because the brain doesn’t know Yeah, yeah.

Cathy: Age. What, what’s happening is her daughter got to be an age where she started to dating boys and she was going out in the world and she looked like an older girl, and, and all of a sudden that triggered in her mom. I’ve, I’m giving a very compassionate. You know, um, response here, I don’t know if this is all true, but it could have triggered something in her mom that made her think she needed to protect her daughter from what happened to her.

Cathy: Mm. So then she started doing this crazy texting to keep her daughter home. Mm-hmm. And reliant on her as a mother. Yeah. So it’s very messed up. Um, there’s nothing about it that we, you know, there’s nothing like, oh, well then that makes sense. Well, and

Todd: my 2 cents is, and I don’t even know how this all fits together, but this woman, this mom hated herself.

Todd: Correct. And instead of her directing that hatred towards herself, she [00:57:00] directed it towards her daughter.

Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of the text messages were actually directed at her versus her daughter. But her daughter received them. Right. Didn’t know that. Um, you know what, I think we should kind of move to rolling in the deep ’cause that’s where we are.

Cathy: Yeah,

Todd: let’s do that. Rolling in the.

Cathy: Rolling in the deep.

Cathy: So I wanna talk about three things in rolling in the deep, and I wanna keep it concise. Number one, I wanna talk about performance parenting. Okay. I wanna talk about parents who live through their kids. Yep. And then I wanna talk about fictitious disorder, um, by proxy, which used to be called Munchhausen Syndrome by proxy.

Cathy: Oh,

Todd: interesting. They changed names.

Cathy: They did. Oh, I did Clinically. Mm-hmm. Yeah. People still say munchhausen and, but it doesn’t quite grasp the whole thing. Got it. Okay. Okay, so let’s talk about performance parenting. Um. I think you’ll understand what this is, and I think there was a lot of this going on in this town.

Cathy: Performance parenting is where we believe that we are parenting our [00:58:00] child, and I’m putting this air in air quotes, if we are, um, making sure they make a team or if we are putting a great fa, you know, Facebook post up that says how much we love them on their birthday or if we are. Buying them a dress because we want them to look hot at the dance.

Cathy: Just like, you know, there’s like these very surfacey things that we do that we say, look, I’m parenting because of, look at these, these surfacey things I’m doing. When really parenting a child is a emotional experience. It is a, being invested in your child’s emotional experience and having a relationship with them so you can be a guide and support system for them.

Cathy: I’m not saying those other things, like making sure your kids have clothes or driving them to practice or there’s nothing wrong with putting up a Facebook post. Sure. But that should be like the icing, you know? That’s the little stuff, right? Yeah. Really what our children, the performance is. Look at what a [00:59:00] good parent I am.

Cathy: I threw this birthday party and let them invite, invite 50 people. But did your kid want 50 people? Was that for you? Was that for them? And, you know, we’ve talked about this on our old podcast and parenting radio a lot. Um, but it’s like there’s a, there’s a sense of almost competing as a parent. Sure. You know, like, I’m gonna show everybody what I do.

Cathy: That’s so good. Yeah. Versus be more focused on having a relationship with your kid, regardless of what that looks like to the outside. Yeah.

Todd: Their values predicated upon how they look, uh, as a parent and their kids being at a certain level or accomplishment or whatever.

Cathy: Or talk or only talking about those things with people, all the, you know, things your kids have done.

Cathy: So that could be a week long of conversation. I just wanted to throw that in there because that’s happening in the documentary. Um, parents who live through their children, again, this is a big Zen Parenting radio thing. Um. Being more focused on what your kids are doing because you [01:00:00] want that for yourself.

Cathy: You want to be the parent of a kid who’s successful or you played soccer, so they play soccer, or you want them to be the captain. So you can tell people that you have a kid who’s a captain. It, it overlaps with performance parenting, but really parents who have a hard time separating their own life from their children’s lives.

Cathy: Yeah. And this is really what Kendra was experiencing. This is part of what Kendra was experiencing, is she was actually living through her daughter and her daughter’s boyfriend. Yeah. And in a really, um, not only manipulative, but really, um, uh, what’s a good word? Like really destructive way. Yeah. Okay. So worse than usual.

Cathy: Um, and so now let’s talk about, um, and, and wait, another word, another clinical word that’s good for this is to talk about that she had what’s called an enmeshed relationship with her daughter. She was hurting her daughter, but then comforting her daughter and she also couldn’t see beyond what [01:01:00] was going on with her daughter.

Cathy: Sure. Enmeshment has gradations, meaning not every enmeshment looks like what Kendra and Lauren were having. Right. Um, it can be, we can be enmeshed and it could look a lot more healthy to the outside, but really we’re too close and too invested. Yeah. Um, but it’s like where the boundaries aren’t clear, where do I start?

Cathy: And you begin. Yeah. That’s really basically it. So now let’s talk about, um, munch Hasen syndrome or factitious disorder. Um, my only experience of this

Todd: is Six Sense.

Cathy: Yes. And tell me why that happens in the sixth Sense. I remember, but what did they say?

Todd: Um, well, the. Our, our favorite little movie actor. What’s his name?

Todd: Kaley.

Cathy: Joel Osmond. Kaley

Todd: Joel. Seeing all these dead people underneath the bed. And this bed, uh, this ghost was, looked really scary. Huh? And she was like, I think vomiting or something like that. Yeah. And then they kind of [01:02:00] randomly go back to this scene with Bruce Willis and, um, this young man, whatever, what was his name in that movie?

Todd: It doesn’t matter. And they, at the funeral, it’s so crazy

Cathy: because this little girl under the bed gives him a video

Todd: tape. VCR. Mm-hmm. A VCR tape and says, play this. And there’s this hidden camera of this woman putting this mother

Cathy: stepmother

Todd: Oh, stepmother.

Cathy: Mm-hmm.

Todd: Putting this poison in their, the kid’s food.

Todd: So she’ll stay sick? Correct. And that’s the first time I’ve ever experienced that. And it was like, oh my God, this is so messed up. And then you realize all these ghosts that, uh, heli Joel Osmond is experiencing are actually not scary at all, and they’re just asking for help. Yeah, yeah.

Cathy: Yeah. That was kind of his first, like, wow, I really helped somebody.

Cathy: Yeah. And, um, so this is more common than people think. Um, it’s actually quite common. Unfortunately. Quite common is [01:03:00] too extreme. It’s more common than people think. Um, the. The other big story was the Gypsy Rose Blanchard story about this girl who there was a documentary made and a, a movie made that had Patricia Arquette as the mom.

Cathy: Basically what happened is this girl had all these physical issues and all these illnesses. She ended up, she was like bald. She was in a wheelchair. Her mom was taking care of her, and she starts to figure out, I’m really not sick. My mom is making me sick.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: She starts dating somebody. This guy, this.

Cathy: Guy that she meets and he kills her. Her mother. Oh boy. For her.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Gypsy Rose Blanchard ended up in prison for, while she’s out, she’s trying to create a new life. People have a better understanding of what was happening to her. Um, she still had to do prison time. Mm-hmm. She still, you know, murdered someone and we can’t, that can’t be our recourse.

Cathy: Did she murder

Todd: or did the boyfriend die? I

Cathy: think the boy boyfriend

Todd: did it. But she told him to do it.

Cathy: Yeah. He did it for her. She was part of the plot kind of thing. [01:04:00] Um, and the reason that I’m saying that it happens, um, more often than we know is in our culture. Okay. First of all, I’ll say that I listen to a podcast, um, every week about, um, this disorder.

Cathy: Okay. And how it shows up. And the, what’s the name of the podcast? The podcast is called, nobody Should Believe Me. Um, it’s a woman named Andrea Dunlop. She’s a novelist and an advocate for all of this, who has a personal family experience with, um, fictitious disorder. Uh, her sister. Had it Oh, wow. And was hurting her own children.

Cathy: And it took her parents and Andrea and her parents a long time to figure this out. They finally confronted her sister and her sister. Totally like disregarded them. Yeah. And she still lives with her kids. And her kids have had a lot of medical issues and they can’t do anything about it. Jesus. So she now has this podcast where she exposes these stories and talks about how common this is.

Cathy: And the reason that we don’t see it as common [01:05:00] is because it’s hard to to know. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, if, uh. Parents who are hurting and it’s, most of the time it tends to be mothers. Yeah. Um, there are fathers that are enablers and there have been fathers who have done the same thing, but it’s typically mothers.

Cathy: It’s still

Todd: interesting to me. Okay. Because, you know, crime is mostly guys like do the math. Statistically, it’s usually guys that are lost and doing some horrible things. But in this specific diagnosis it’s usually mom. And I guess it makes sense because it has to do with nurturing. Right.

Cathy: It has to do with, that’s where a woman has power.

Todd: Yeah. Right.

Cathy: So they have power as a nurturer. Yeah. And they have power as a mother. Yeah. And that’s where they can actually do something. They talk about it a lot on the pod. So the podcast is not all about salacious stories, it’s about why this happens. Mm-hmm. I listen to a lot of podcasts, first of all ’cause I enjoy hearing these things, but I also as a therapist, like I listen to a lot about narcissism and it’s just [01:06:00] interesting to me what people do.

Cathy: With their trauma or what people do when they don’t feel seen, heard, and understood,

Todd: sweetie, you’re not crazy. Isn’t that the name of the podcast?

Cathy: Yes. That’s, that’s a podcast about emotional abuse called, about

Todd: Mutual. Yeah.

Cathy: Um, but so anyway, she, it’s kind of like in a true crime, but it’s more of an exploration of why this happens.

Cathy: Who are the people? Because also they do things like they doctor hop. Mm-hmm. Or they go to, you know, holistic practitioners.

Todd: A lot of things you can do to avoid it.

Cathy: Correct. And there’s a lot of doctors who allow it. Mm. They like are like, oh, come to me. You know? It’s kinda like doctors who will prescribe any meds.

Cathy: Yeah. And there’s all these steps. It’s a little, ’cause it’s muha or I’m gonna call it Muha. Let’s stay with Factitious because it’s the same thing. And it’s the clinical diagnosis. Fictitious disorder is also very culty. Mm. Okay. Because it, it’s all, you know, it’s obviously physical abuse and emotional abuse, but what’s interesting about it is the people who are perpetrating this all tend to have the same [01:07:00] playbook, which a lot of cult leaders do too, and a lot of emotional abusers.

Cathy: It’s so interesting how they have similar steps in the way that they do things without

Todd: necessarily studying up on each other’s habits. Yeah. It just happens.

Cathy: They don’t go to school together. Yeah. It’s like they’re just all doing the same thing and they’s a lot of steps like where. A kid, you know, a mom whose kid is getting sick a lot and then a, you know, they’ll figure it out and then they’ll come back and say, oh there’s GI issues.

Cathy: ’cause GI issues are hard to figure out. Yeah. Hard to diagnose. Then they’ll say they’re not eating and they’ll get them a feeding tube. And I’m being very general here. It doesn’t always happen this way, but this is kind of a template. And then once they have a feeding tube, they have a direct line inside their body.

Cathy: Yeah. And then a lot of times, like there have been parents who have like put feces into the tube. Yikes. They have put poisons into the tube and so what is the goal? People will say, attention it is, my kid is sick. I’m getting doctor attention, I’m getting family attention. I’m getting, um, you know, people caring about me, worrying about me.

Cathy: For [01:08:00] some people it is things like I’m gonna write a blog about it. Mm-hmm. And I’m gonna talk about this issue. I’m gonna have a community. There was this whole podcast called Scam Amanda, and it was, you know, scam Amanda. Mm-hmm. You know, scam Amanda and about how she faked having, um, cancer for years and years and years and years and got a lot of money.

Cathy: Some people do it to get money. We had a neighbor that did that. We did,

Todd: yep.

Cathy: Am I forget it. She

Todd: lived down the block. She told us about all these diagnoses. That’s right.

Cathy: Okay. Now I remember. Really interesting. So it, it has shown up in our lives. Yes. And so that’s just factitious disorder. Yeah. Fictitious disorder by proxy is when you’re doing it to your child.

Cathy: Yeah. Or somebody else. Yeah. Or like an elderly person. So fictitious disorders, when you’re pretending you have something and you know, people will, you know, shave their heads and say they’ve been through chemo. Yeah. And you know, actually go to the hospital and take pictures in the hallway and then post it.

Cathy: But they really didn’t have an appointment. Like it’s really, um, interesting. Um, so I have one small

Todd: example please of how I [01:09:00] think I participated in it one time when I was like 13 years old, my friend, I was standing on the side of a pool and my friend hit my legs out and it almost hit my head Okay. But it looked as if it was, and I pretended to as if it hit my head and I was dizzy and all that.

Todd: You got attention. And I got attention for it. Todd, do you know what that’s like?

Cathy: It’s like butch and the bees.

Todd: Oh yeah.

Cathy: Don’t get me started. We were with my niece and nephew in Galena and it was when they were little. They’re now in their twenties.

Todd: We were on a walk Uhhuh and we tapped on a hornet’s nest.

Todd: Yeah. Turns out is on the ground. Yeah. The three of us got attacked by Oh

Cathy: Todd and my niece got stung.

Todd: Yeah. Max,

Cathy: who was like three at the time.

Todd: It was like three, like we like we pulled off Maddie’s shirt and there were still Bess flying out of her shirt. Yeah. Hornets. Max didn’t get hit. I don’t even think I got hit, but Maddie got stung a few times and it was like a big thing.

Todd: ’cause I like ran home, like we just stepped on a Hornets and this and Max is like, oh yeah, I got bit. And he like [01:10:00] shows part of the belly and there’s nothing there. So Max, if you’re listening and I think you are, because I think you listen to this podcast, you did not get stung by

Cathy: it. But he was so sweet.

Cathy: He would just wanted to be part of it.

Todd: He had a bandaid on his head for three days and he didn’t even hit his head.

Cathy: Well, let’s just say the children don’t have this in that way. That’s just attention seeking. But there are, when they get older, like. Um, Andrea Dunlap, who does this podcast, her sister, what started with her sister, is her sister had back surgery, got a lot of attention, and then started having all these other things that were happening.

Cathy: Yeah. And at one point said her hair was falling out, and when she went to the doctor, the doctor said she’s been shaving her head. That’s not So there are signs Yeah. Sometimes that it starts early and then it ends up going on with their children. Now the, and then one more thing that I wanna say it is, there’s a documentary called Take Care of Maya.

Todd: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: That a lot of people have seen. It’s also on Netflix and it follows the Kowalski family. And they’re this whole legal battle they have because Beta [01:11:00] Kowalski, the mom was accused of. Fictitious disorder by proxy when trying to get medical care for Maya. And then Beta, her mom, um, she died by suicide.

Cathy: And so they, they sued the hospital and it’s this whole thing. Well, Andrea Dunlap did a whole season about it and there really is a lot of evidence that she was keeping Maya sick. Mm-hmm. So like the Netflix documentary makes you think it’s the hospitals that are trying to hold, that’re, trying to kidnap this little girl and hurt this family.

Cathy: And Andrea Dunlap did this whole, she’s also a journalist. This whole journalistic, she’s like this actually, I dunno. I’m gonna let people listen to that on their own.

Todd: You try to tell me that sometimes there’s signs of people being deceptive. Very much so. There are signs, um.

Cathy: [01:12:00] So I’m gonna bring this full circle and then I’ll be done talking about this. This was fictitious disorder by technology.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So what

Todd: that’s a lot of

Cathy: syllables was texting her. Kendra was texting her own daughter and threatening her, and then her daughter would come home and get. Compassion from her mom and need her mom more.

Cathy: Yeah. Because she was scared of the text she was getting. Yeah. So her mom was creating a cycle of being needed.

Todd: And through that lens, we all wanna be needed. We do, but we don’t. Hers was just a little overstepping, let’s say.

Cathy: So she’s being interviewed in this documentary, and the, the person, you know, Sarah, who’s doing the documentary interviewing her says, you told her to kill herself.

Cathy: Weren’t you worried that she would do that? And she’s like, no. I knew her well enough that she wouldn’t like, just so dis, you know, just so removed from reality. Yeah. Um, but anyway, I [01:13:00] think that the, the why this documentary is interesting. It’s not just about the story and like looking at people’s lives and you know, going, oh my gosh, it’s about the fact that there was this mom doing this and why, and her own history of being traumatized.

Cathy: And then, you know. Projecting that trauma on her daughter and other children. Um, it’s about fictitious disorder. It’s about using technology to get your own emotional needs met, aren’t human

Todd: beings. Interesting. Like, you know, back in the old days you’d have to like poison your kids, right? And now we’re like, Hey, maybe I don’t have to poison ’em.

Todd: Maybe I could just pretend to send texts to them from somebody else’s phone. Like, I know, it’s so interesting how creative as adults, how human beings can get

Cathy: and you know, it’s interesting because the, the mother of Owen, um, who didn’t do anything wrong per se in the big picture, but even she took Owen’s phone and started texting Chloe saying, this is Owen, I know you did it.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: You know, even the moms were getting involved in like blaming other people. And [01:14:00] again, that’s not fictitious disorder, but it’s still like you’re pretending to be your kid. And it’s, it just was so messy and disturbing. Um. So anyway, that is kind of, that’s my big, you know, all right. Overview on, on that.

Cathy: And then I’m, you know, I have so many things about small towns. I just don’t know if it’s really necessary. I don’t, I think we got the gist. I don’t

Todd: have any trivia. Uh, where are they now? It’s kind all brand new. Like, is there any categories you wanna make sure we hit?

Cathy: Um, I didn’t come up with a song Did you?

Todd: I sure did.

Cathy: Oh, then you get to do your song. It means I win. Oh, did you do small town?

Todd: I did not do small town. Okay. And I did, I chose not to overthink it.

Cathy: Okay. This is music game. Everybody. Let’s, let’s hear it.

Todd: You think they’ll drop the ball? That’s

Cathy: good, Todd. Very good.

Cathy: Um, it’s actually, when you really get into [01:15:00] this,

Todd: do you think they’ll like this song, this

Cathy: whole song is about how the mother is overprotective and. Gives her child fear.

Todd: Yeah. And ache diving. Mama’s gonna put all of her fears into you. Yeah. Mama won’t let anyone dirty get through.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: Mama’s gonna let keep you right here under her wing.

Todd: She won’t let you fly, but she might let you sing. So she’s gonna let her sing. So that is funny. They should have bought the rights to this song for that documentary. It fits so well.

Cathy: Yeah, it’s perfect. And that’s, you know, and some of us do that just a teeny bit in a way that’s not destructive. It’s just us, you know, becoming aware of how we’re getting over involved.

Cathy: And some people get so caught up in these things like, you know, I’m thinking about all these lifetime movies I used to watch in my twenties and thirties about, you know, mom, a mom who was upset that her daughter didn’t meet the cheerleading team. And so she like killed another cheerleader to make room.

Cathy: Like there are people who just take this to such an extreme and right then, you [01:16:00] know. That there’s so many other things going on.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: You know, it’s not as simple as you think it is. And, and for as much as it, I, you know, Kendra is not held in high regard by anybody after seeing this documentary. Um, nor do, am I quite sure that she understands what she did.

Cathy: No, she, ’cause she’s in this documentary and she’s kind of explaining, she actually has a point where she says, I think everybody has made mistakes. And you know, some people have driven drunk when they shouldn’t have. And, you know, they could be arrested just like I was. And when you’re watching it, you’re like, uh, no.

Cathy: You were texting obscene things to your daughter. Yeah. And her boyfriend. So everybody go watch it.

Todd: Um, and just a quick plug for a podcast. You and I did Podcast number 175 Pink Floyd’s Mother can help us understand conscious parenting.

Cathy: Yes, that’s good. It’s one of my

Todd: favorite. I’ll put that in the show notes.

Todd: But that’s

Cathy: old Todd. If we’re on 800 whatever. And that was hundred 75. [01:17:00] Wow. That was a long time ago. Podcast ago. It was probably like 10 years ago.

Todd: So we’re gonna use this, uh, song Mother to take us home and we’ll see you all next week, I guess. Right. Thanks for listening.

Todd: Mama’s going to keep you right here. She won’t let you fly, but she might let you sing. Mama’s going to keep baby cozy and the wall.

Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.