[00:00:00]
Todd: I let it go for
Cathy: whole thing. No, I’m kidding.
Todd: All right. Um, welcome to Zen Pop Parenting.
Todd: I can’t, I can’t, can’t turn it off. I can’t do the applause. I can’t turn the applause off and the music at the same time. I either need to dull it out. It’s, it’s a production thing. It’s a production thing. Uh, welcome back to another episode of Zen Pop Parenting. Um, what’s our tagline or closest thing you can think of what our tagline is, sweetie?
Todd: Um,
Cathy: where Gen X culture [00:01:00] meets where Gen X pop culture meets real life reflection.
Todd: Boom. And this episode is titled Fell on Black Days, the Deaths of nineties Lead Singers and what it teaches us about mental health and addictions. So
Cathy: I just told Todd that I have like nine pages in front of me of things I’ve like either printed off or written or just there’s so much in this and I much, and because it is Gen X, uh.
Cathy: Pop culture, and Todd and I obviously lived through this and have our own personal experiences and a lot happened and I think, um, where I know that this has been discussed, you know, throughout, um, anybody who discusses pop culture is discussed, the nineties and grunge, but there’s so much when it comes to what happened to our lead singers.
Todd: Yes.
Cathy: Like it was, it’s when you really put it all together, which we’re doing today, it’s kind of unbelievable. Should we start? So we’re gonna set the scene. Are
Todd: we
Cathy: ready to set [00:02:00] the scene? We are ready to set the scene.
Todd: So should we, uh, I think a good way to start is just to kind of remind people of who the people who the lead singer is that we lost from the nineties. Oh boy. I kind of put that all under WTF. I know, but I feel like, uh, so we
Cathy: should just say ’em all. We should just say ’em all. Okay, so,
Todd: um, get ready and, and no, and there was a part, uh, let’s just say who they’re, so let’s do ladies first.
Cathy: Oh,
okay.
Todd: Interesting. Um, and we’re just gonna list them first and then maybe talk about, I don’t know who, we’ll,
Cathy: we’ll get deeper into it, but I think maybe having the list is a good set. The theme, but then I wanna go back to nineties grunge Sure. How it started. Yeah. We go lead singers who died. So, um, women we [00:03:00] have, um, Kristen Faff from whole.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Uh, age 27, heroin overdose. Mia Zapata from the Gits, uh, murdered when she was 27. And then Dolores or, um, or Rearden or Rearden from the cranberries. She died at 46, but it was, uh, she died drowning alcohol intoxication. And then the guys, um, Kurt Cobain, lead Singer Nirvana Suicide, 27 Lane Staley, uh, from Allison Chains overdose 34.
Cathy: Bradley Noel from Sublime Overdose 28, Shannon Hoon, blind Melon Overdose, 28, Michael Hutchins in Excess, suspected Suicide that has a whole story behind it. Uh, at the age of 37, Scott Wyland from Stone Temple Pilots and Velvet Revolver overdose at 48. Um, Janie Lane from Warrant Alcohol Poisoning 47. Doug Hopkins from Gin Blossoms Suicide at 32.
Cathy: Uh, Chris Cornell Sound Garden and Audio Slave Suicide 52. That’s
Todd: quite a list. Just pause there. Like that’s, um, right. You know, just [00:04:00] very, very sad. And some of these people, obviously I know very well, some people I didn’t even know their names.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Uh, but when you sent me the list, I’m like, oh my gosh. Yeah.
Todd: I didn’t, like, I didn’t know the guy from Gin Blossoms died by gunshot. Mm-hmm. Suicide, uh, uh, died in his own hands. So just really, really sad. And what’s cool about this podcast that Kathy and I have cooked up mostly Kathy, is um, we’re balancing. You know, things that we love to talk about, which is pop culture and something very serious, which is mental wealth.
Todd: Yeah. Uh, mental wealth. Mental health. What we want is mental wealth. Yeah. And mental, uh, wellness. So anyways, so where did we wanna start? Do you wanna, so
Cathy: let’s just kind of set the scene for, um, this time period. Uh, I think the big turning point was 1991, there was like a massive cultural reset mm-hmm.
Cathy: Which we obviously lived through. You and I were both in college at the time. Um, in September, 1991, Nirvana’s Nevermind. Was released. And, you know, in a very, you know, it’s not metaphorical, but [00:05:00] interestingly it, uh, kicked Michael Jackson’s dangerous off the ba the billboard charts very symbolic. Right. Very symbolic.
Cathy: Good. Thank you. That’s what I was looking for. And then Pearl Jams 10 came out in August, 1991. And then, so Sound Garden and Allison Chains were just getting going. And so Todd, I’m gonna give you a little trivia because you always give me the trivia. Yeah. Name the five. Uh, they called them the Big five grunge bands Sound Garden.
Cathy: Yep. Um,
Todd: Nirvana, Uhhuh, Pearl Jam. Correct. Um, I get the one mixed up with the, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s not pumpkins. Pumpkins are not g gr at all. No. No. Um, I, I,
Cathy: they were not on No.
Todd: And they not in any of my research. Well, and that’s by design, um, Allison Chains. Yep. Allison Chains.
Todd: And that’s, I only have four
Cathy: Stone Temple pilots. STP Yeah. Is considered the fifth, which was one of my favorites. Like I, um, had a [00:06:00] big, uh, stone Temple pilots, uh, period of time. Mm-hmm. Um, post-college I did. Uh, but anyway. Yeah. Interesting. So can you give us a two second on why the pumpkins are not, when you say it’s by design, what do you mean?
Todd: Um, so I feel like what Eddie Veter and Kurt Cobain and those types of guys, they were always trying to push against corporate, uh, America. And Billy says very clearly, like he always wanted to make it big. He always wanted to sell out stadiums, uh, or arenas. Not sure if pumpkins ever sold out a stadium, but maybe an arena.
Todd: Um, and, and was
Cathy: it Seattle, Chicago?
Todd: Well, no, I mean. What I, what I do know is the reason the pumpkins get lumped in is obviously they got big at the same time and they were in the single soundtrack, right? They were like the last song, um, to be chosen in the single soundtrack. And this is before I think even Simon’s Dream came out.
Todd: Correct. And drowned, which is off [00:07:00] of, I guess. No, no. Drown is off the soundtrack. It’s not on an album. Okay. Um, and I think it had to do with the lead singer of Alison Chains or Soundgarden said to um, the director who directed it, Cameron Crow. Cameron Crow said, you gotta listen to these guys from Chicago because mm-hmm.
Todd: They’re really good. But Billy, just as a completely different stage presence like Kurt and Eddie, they’re like very normal, uh, salt of the earth type guys. Billy would come in in dresses, like he would wear dresses interesting on stage. He never wore a flannel. Like it was just very deliberate. So maybe we’ll talk about pumpkins.
Todd: Yeah. Much longer in some other podcast. But pumpkins, um, are one of my two favorite bands and they’re absolutely not crunch.
Cathy: So. Interesting. Yeah. I think we should do a whole thing on pumpkins in another podcast. ’cause that’s like Todd said. Yeah. He has a lot of info. So let’s talk about the bands that were left behind during this big shift.
Cathy: Okay. Or the, you know, the types of music. So. Hair metal and glam rock, which we are gonna do a whole show on. Mm-hmm. Because I really love that. So [00:08:00] Poison Warrant, Motley Crue, rat Skid Row, um, twisted Sister, white Snake, all of them got left behind with this whole grunge thing. Um, grunge was more like about emotional honesty and minimalism
seems settle.
Saying it sound poison
Cathy: was not about minimalism
every has. Its though.
Todd: Um, so it’s so easy for me to make fun of Poison and Motley Crue and all these other bands, and I, I, I will, I. So don’t worry. And they got some really good songs, but of course
Cathy: they including that one and, and they were of their time, which we will again, as we said, we will do a whole sh whole show on Hairbands.
Cathy: And my goal when we do that show is to demonstrate their worth.
Yeah.
Cathy: You know, like, this is, they, everyone has a place. Uh, the other music that was kicked out of the scene was Corporate Rock Arena, pop, Rio Speedwagon, journey Sticks, foreigner, also bands I love. Mm-hmm. I love that kind of music. That to me is a little more like, it kind of vibes with yacht rock a little [00:09:00] bit.
Cathy: Well, yeah. Like adjacent to Yacht Rock
Still Together,
Todd: I think of this as early eighties. RAO.
Cathy: Yeah. They had a place and then the other, another, uh, type of music that got kicked out. Synth Pop, new Wave, Duran Duran. Tears for Fears. Aha. Spano Ballet. They were like not cool anymore. Mm-hmm. Right. So they, you know, fell outta the mainstream.
Cathy: And because what grunge was, um. Not interested in was perfection or image driven marketing, like you said with Billy,
Cathy: they weren’t interested in sexist or macho tropes or any kind of escaping. They were like in it. Yeah, they were in it, yeah. They were feeling the pain. And so that was what we were feeling. Like all of that music that I just listed off, all the different kinds of music. That was the eighties. Yeah. You know, a little bit.
Cathy: Uh, it was, it was all kind of mixed together. And then all of a sudden, 91 really [00:10:00] it, 92, it became our defining sound. Um, that’s what we listened to was music. What
Todd: was the song that wiped off? Uh, um, smells like Teen Spirit wiped off Michael Jackson’s What, what was the album? Uh, the album was Dangerous. And what, what was the Poplar song on?
Todd: Dangerous? I don’t
Cathy: remember. I didn’t know. Dangerous Very well. Maybe Black and white. Oh, okay. I don’t know. I, I can’t, I don’t know that album. Just to
Todd: kind of remind people like the type of music that was being replaced.
Todd: Right. So all these very different types of music Yep. Is about to take exit stage left, correct. And head towards this rainy town in the Pacific Northwest called Seattle.
Cathy: And speaking of another way to set the scene here is let’s talk about the vibes of the movies. So there was a movie that came out as we already discussed, singles mm-hmm.
Cathy: In 1992. And Cameron Crowe was pretty much ahead of the scene when it came to talking about grunge music. I don’t even know if we had that [00:11:00] language yet, but he, you know, Pearl Jam is, Pearl Jam is actually in the movie. Mm-hmm. They are in Citizen Dick. The um, band, the fake
Todd: band that was all Pearl Jam.
Todd: Members of the exception of Matt Dylan. Matt Dylan. Yeah.
Cathy: Um, and so, you know. They, the music that he put on the soundtrack was, you know, Allison Shane’s Sound Garden. Um, as Todd said, smashing Pumpkins, even though they weren’t. Was
Todd: Nirvana
Cathy: on the single soundtrack? I don’t think it were. No. No. And I, I think there was like, they were asked and didn’t wanna be, don’t you remember that story?
Cathy: No. No. Um, sound Garden, Pearl Jam. Mother Love Bone. By the way, the lead singer of Mother Loved Bone also died early. Yes.
Todd: Andy, I forget his last name, sorry.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. And then Mud Honey. Um, screaming trees. So, um, you know, that’s, and that’s kinda when we start to see, I. The, the what people were wearing, you know, the, um, and I’m not saying singles invented it, it’s just that a lot of flannels, um, a lot of like less concerned Yeah.
Cathy: About your appearance, you know what I mean? [00:12:00] Because the eighties aesthetic was very, like, you guys, my hair was perfect. Yeah. It was braided perfect. It curled it. I I used curling irons. I used, um, hot rollers. I blew it dry every morning. Like there was a, a kind of look that needed to be very staged and perfect.
Yeah.
Cathy: The 90 this time during this, it was very sweaty. Yeah. And like not real makeupy. Um, and so anyway, that was 1992. Mm-hmm. Um, do you have anything from that movie that you wanna share
Todd: of, uh, singles? Yeah. As a matter of fact, I do. It’s a cliff. This is, um, this is Janet and Cliff, Janet.
Let’s see or deal. Hey, well your machine wasn’t on and um, I was supposed to see you Saturday, but don’t. Yeah. So I just thought I’d come by and say hi. So, um, how about this weekend? This weekend we’re [00:13:00] really busy. We got, we got that show, right? Yeah. We got that show. We got these guys
Todd: great acting
Cathy: Cliff.
Todd: We got that show.
Cathy: Cliff wasn’t too into Janet at that point.
Todd: Yeah. And um, Janet plays a very disempowered, um, girlfriend and ends up until she’s not. Until she’s not. Yeah. So,
Cathy: um, and then kind of switching into another year, 1994, which was the, I graduated from college in 93. So the movie Reality Bites that came out in 1994 was very much a reflection of what I was feeling and going through.
Cathy: And Todd too. I mean, he graduated a year behind me. So it was, you graduated in 94. Do you remember seeing reality bites?
Todd: I do. Uh, it wasn’t, it didn’t hit me like it did most people around me.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Um, so can I play a
Todd: quick clip from that? Sure. Go ahead. All
And can you define irony? It’s when the actual meaning is the complete opposite from the literal me.
I.
Todd: What’s his name? Troy,
when I needed to, Hey, [00:14:00] uh, I I should go.
Todd: Oh, there he goes.
Cathy: Laney.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: La Elena and Troy and that, and that was Ethan Hawk doing his best. Ethan Hawk. He, he had a, he has a persona. Now, let me say this. I have seen so many interviews with Ethan Hawk and I love him. Yeah. He’s so down to earth in so many ways and he is so thoughtful.
Cathy: Grassroots. Yeah. But it’s just funny. His characters always, not always, but that just reminds me of
Todd: Well, he’s kind of like, for me, like Ben Stiller, I love him and, you know, since he did Severance, he’s a completely different person. But Sure. I feel like Ben Stiller played the kind of the dopey disempowered guy in the movie.
Todd: Like something about Mary, uh, meet the parents. Well,
Cathy: even in reality bites, he’s not dopey, but he kind of is the guy that gets shoved aside.
Todd: And I feel like Ethan Hawk plays a, um, a different, a completely different type person, but similar to other. Roles that he’s played
Cathy: before Sunrise. Before Sunset, yeah, before midnight.
Cathy: That’s who he’s even boyhood.
Todd: Like it’s, I could see like
Cathy: [00:15:00] mm-hmm.
Todd: Uh, him and Boyhood is an older version of him from before Sunrise.
Cathy: Absolutely. And, and maybe that’s purposeful. Yeah. You
Todd: know, I,
Cathy: well, of course it is because the same director did the movie, those three movies and then Boyhood were both, were Richard Linklater, weren’t they?
Cathy: Uh, yeah. Linklater did ’em all. So maybe he’s like, Hey, yeah, you’re gonna be just do the same thing. Yeah. So Reality Bites, the music in the soundtrack was not necessarily grunge, it was more like grunge adjacent. Mm-hmm. So it was a little softer, um, you know, had some throwbacks like my Sharon and Squeeze, you know, tempted and stuff like that.
Cathy: But it what, it continued that vibe of like feeling. Outcast or feeling, you know, like overwhelmed by the world or, or talking about feelings, you know, like really discussing, um, that emotional core
Yeah.
Cathy: Of grunge and, you know, continuing the look. Like I was just telling, um, Skyler about reality bites yesterday.
Cathy: And, um, just like Winona writer’s hair in that movie, everyone wanted [00:16:00] their hair. Like her. Yeah. And what was her hair like? It was just choppy and short and messy. Mm-hmm.
Like,
Cathy: there was no, it was just, and it was adorable and she’s adorable. Um, but we all got her hair cut that way, or some of us did.
Yeah.
Including
Cathy: me, um, you know, trying to do this kind of, it, it was the same kind of vibe. Yeah. And, um. So now anything else was set the scene honey? Yeah. Two other things. Okay.
Todd: One is I feel, obviously we bought CDs before this, but I feel like I remember going to like Best Buy Sure. Like every other Saturday buying a cd.
Todd: Right? Same. And it was probably one of these artists that we’re talking about. Um, obviously M-T-M-M-T-V Unplugged played a significant role. You know, Nirvana did it. Um, Pearl Jam did it. It’s, and think about the opposite, um, energy of the eighties Glam rock. Right. Versus unplugged. And then, um, strip
Cathy: it all down.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: So that’s it. So we ready for the remember when.
Cathy: Yeah. Um, but I was gonna say also, do you remember just going, yes. We went to coconut [00:17:00] records and we went to, you know, not Best Buy. What was the one we always went to record. The place where you saw the Pumpkins Tower. Right. Tower Records, yeah. You know, those kind of places in Chicago and, um, we would just listen.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. I, because I didn’t have any money. I know you probably didn’t have much either. And so they had all these earphones set out. Oh, yeah. So you could just go listen, I mean, this is before Napster. Yeah. Being able to download music. So that’s how you knew if an album was good. I know they still have these things right.
Cathy: At like Barnes and Noble, but you don’t need to do that. It’s not as necessary. Yeah. You don’t need to do that. So I’m rem I’m ready for, remember when.
You couldn’t wait
Cathy: to love
Todd: me. Couldn’t wait, wait to leave
Cathy: me. What do you remember about this, this grunge time, Todd? Um,
Todd: I remember, I mean, it was college. It was, um, you know, ev we all wore flannels. We all wore, wore baggy stuff.
Yeah.
Todd: Um, you know, nowadays you go to a college campus, [00:18:00] girls are barely wearing any clothes.
Todd: When you guys were going to college, you were all covered up in three layers.
Cathy: We had sweatshirts, we had our hats backwards. Yeah. We had gr we had like, it was a lot of jackets and jeans. Um, it was a lot of flannel shirts. Like two Todd’s point. Um, we did not show much. Yep. At all. Like maybe a blazer with like a semi low cut shirt or like a V-neck.
Cathy: But no, it was very covered up. And, but not because of like any kind of, we didn’t wanna show ourselves that was the fashion, the style. That was the fashion. Mm-hmm. Uh,
Todd: what do you remember? Gimme one of your,
Cathy: oh, I remember. When is, I remember smells like Teen Spirit. Um, I remember I came back, it must’ve been from Thanksgiving or Christmas, I don’t remember exactly, but my roommate Hutch, my friend Amy, I remember we came back and she’s like, have you heard that song?
Cathy: And I’m like, I totally have heard that song. I knew exactly what she was talking about. And then we went to the SA house of Fraternity House. So it was across the street from us and they played it. Mm-hmm. And [00:19:00] it was like the first time I ever danced to that song. And you danced like the video was, and I don’t mean because we saw the video, there’s just a feeling with that song.
Cathy: Yeah. Where you’re just. I don’t know if this is a language, but mosh pitting. Yeah. You’re just jumping, yeah. Up and down and there’s like a feeling of being really felt. Yeah. Like this is where we are. And you know, and it’s funny because, you know, when you think about why these songs were written in, the pain that Kurt Cobain was in, obviously me at a small private school in Iowa is not experiencing that.
Cathy: But there’s something about the generational pull of like, we know this. And then, um, so that’s the first time I, you know, smells like Teen Spirit came into my life. And then Lithium was actually my favorite song. ’cause same kind of thing. Um, same kind of mosh pity dancing to that song. Mm-hmm. Um, that year, that senior year though, and I knew you at this point, it was really Pearl Jam.
Yeah. It
Cathy: was 10.
Yeah.
Cathy: Um, that [00:20:00] was the album that I felt like we would play front to back. Um. Does anyone say that anymore?
Todd: It doesn’t make sense anymore.
Cathy: Front of Act meant like the front of the album, the back of the album. What I mean is you play all the songs. Mm-hmm. And everybody knew all the songs and you would go see a band and they would play the songs.
Cathy: Um, and so that was really big for college. And then in, when post post-college, um, that’s when Unplugged came out because I lived with three of my best friends from school and we played that all the time. Yep. Like we each had our own copy of Nirvana Unplugged. And then that’s when I really got into Stone Temple Pilots.
Todd: So a few things. One is, um, there was a moment in later 1991, all these albums came in within, I think like, maybe not all of them. Like a few of them came in like within like two weeks of each other. Yeah. Uh, but then others came in like within a few months, nevermind. September of 91.
Mm-hmm.
Todd: Uh, red Hat Chili Peppers, blood Sugar, sex Magic.
Todd: September, same [00:21:00] date. Wow. September 24th, 1991. Sound Garden. Uh. Bad, bad motor finger. And I didn’t, I wasn’t into that. Um, Pearl Jam, 10 August of 91. Guns N Roses. Yeah. Use your illusion. Part one and 2 91. So stop on
Cathy: that really quick. Hold your place. Holding. Holding. What do you think about GNR as far as where they fall?
Cathy: Because they feel like a weird connection between Yeah, they’re the bands. They’re the bridge. Yeah. And grunge. Yeah. But they were, when they came out, that was, I was in high school when they were big and we knew that was different.
Todd: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Well, when, um, uh, the main song, the song that changed everything.
Todd: Welcome to the
Cathy: Jungle.
Todd: No. No. Oh,
Cathy: sweet Child of Mine. Sweet
Todd: Child of Mine. Yeah. I remember, I think I was a sophomore or junior in high school. And then it was like, you couldn’t turn the radio off without hearing that thing. Totally. But I feel like they were the bridge having said that, GNR State, you know, they had, um.
Todd: Uh, [00:22:00] what’s the name of the album? Uh, uh, the first album. Yeah, the first one. Um,
Cathy: right. We, well, I mean this is a lot of information to remember. I know. Um,
Todd: appetite, appetite for Destruction. Thank you. And then they stays like, use your illusion one and two were like, outstanding. They were double album. They were, um, well, ultimate Metallica, the Black album came out Okay.
Todd: At 91. Okay. Um, some that are less important. Pixies, uh, Trump Lamond, Matthew Sweet Girlfriend. My Bloody Valentine. I loved that album. Um, and I think You Too came out with one right around that same time. So, um, I don’t know, which
Cathy: is kind of a mix of music, because obviously Matthew Sweet wasn’t really grungy Exactly.
Cathy: He was a more, like, there was definitely a, there were other types of music going on in the nineties. That’s why I brought up reality bites. Yeah, because, ’cause I think that, um, you know, there was other music that people were listening to besides grunge, but everything had that feel that. Dirty, like deep that, that sound of the guitar.
Cathy: Well, everything was a [00:23:00] little fuzzier.
Todd: The, the riff that hooked me into the grunge. I don’t remem I remember I was in the fraternity house and this video came on. Mm-hmm.
Let’s,
Todd: and I listened to this song. Over and over, like in a very annoying way. Like I could not, like, I don’t know, there’s something about it and it still remains one of my top 10 Pearl Jam songs, but when I, you
Cathy: and, uh, David Letterman.
Todd: Yeah. Um, and, uh, so yeah, but Alive was my first introduction to, uh, Pearl Jam was much more important to me than Nirvana was.
Todd: Okay. And still is by that, by the way. Yeah. But anyways,
Cathy: um, few more [00:24:00] remember wins before we move on to random facts. Um, this is a sad one. Todd, are you ready? I’m ready. So, uh, Todd was a year younger than me and I went back to visit him. Um, I think it was like our version of Homecoming. It was the beginning of the year.
Cathy: And, um, so I had already graduated and I remember going into Peggy’s, which was our bar, and everyone was dancing to No Rain by Blind Melon. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was like. I knew that song, but I was like, oh, I never did this song here. Yeah. Do you know, it was one of my like intros to like, oh, everybody is like bonding over this song and I don’t go to school here anymore.
Cathy: And then we didn’t have a good weekend. No, we didn’t. So that song has never been like super, I, I like it, but it reminds me of that whole weekend. I hear you. But
Todd: um. Yeah. What, what I, when I think [00:25:00] of Blind Mell, first of all, thank you for sharing that. Second of all, that bad weekend we had was yet another step into course us coming together of course. Um, but Blind Melon, I think they only have one album. And Shannon, Shannon died, died of I think a cocaine or heroin overdose.
Todd: And, um, I love that album. Tons of Home, no Rain Change. Your favorite song in the whole world has changed. Favorite, my favorite song in the whole world has changed. So, um, yeah. Sweet Shannon Hoon from Indiana. Um, just, he had to numb out and escape his pain, unfortunately.
Cathy: Yeah. And as I said before, my favorite song from that time was, uh, the Plush by Stone Temple Pilots, which was, I liked the rock version of it, but I also liked the Unplugged version of it.
Cathy: They didn’t do MTV Unplugged, but they did, there’s a song called Plush. They did some unplugged
Todd: shows. Everybody talks about him as like this amazing lyricist. Now, I don’t really listen to lyrics that much.[00:26:00]
Todd: Do you think of him as having super good lyrics?
Cathy: I like singing their songs, if that makes any sense. I wasn’t relating to his lyrics the way I would Taylor Swift song. Right. ’cause she’s writing about my experience. But they were fun to sing. Right. Um, and they kept being good to me. Like Scott was, uh, known for issues with addiction all through he battle.
Todd: Battle. He did. Bannon just died. Right. And this, uh, what’s the name, Scott? He, I think he was trying to get better from rehabs and everything else and just, uh, ended up not being able to make it.
Cathy: He didn’t make it so he died later. Um, more in the two thousands. But anyway, I am ready for random facts. If you are, uh, let’s go to random facts, shall we?
Todd: Jerry, do you know the human head weighs eight pounds? Wait to play it [00:27:00] again. I like it to One more time.
Eight pounds.
Todd: What do you have for random facts, sweetheart?
Cathy: Well, one of the things you and I discussed, uh, as we were talking about the artists who died, the lead singers like Kurt and Kristen, Mia, Shannon, Bradley, Andrew, like all these guys, these lead singers from these bands, um, they all died at 27.
Yeah.
Cathy: And there, and there’s this like thing with being 27, um, that is really interesting. There were, and some of the other people who died at 27, uh, Jimi Hendrix.
Todd: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Um, Janice, Janice. Uh, uh, Jim Morrison,
Todd: James Douglas Morrison. Yeah.
Cathy: And there is like, why, you know, the 27 Club, like why, and I was kind of, you know, doing deep research.
Cathy: ’cause you know, this gets a little into rolling in the deep, which I don’t wanna jump ahead, but, you know, people, it’s usually when someone dies at 27, it’s addiction, uh, died by suicide, violence of some type. And there [00:28:00] really isn’t a scientific reason. Like they’re, you know, usually they’re like, well, this is what happens.
Cathy: Basically, they just attribute it to early burnout. Mm-hmm. Like someone who’s been famous who just burns out they’re untreated trauma, which we’re gonna dig into in a little bit. Um, and a culture of enablers. When you have people around you who just allow you to continue doing what you’re doing. And then at the time, especially the nineties, there was such a lack of mental health support, you know?
Cathy: So, um, just a very different time, but I just think that’s so interesting. Yeah.
Todd: Uh, a few things I have is, um, very shallow here, but the word grunge was originally used as an insult. Didn’t know that. Oh, interesting. Maybe that was in a Rolling Stone article. Um, MTV banned Allison Chain’s Wood for Drug References.
Todd: I don’t even know that song. Really? That’s what it says. I mean, I could, everything Kathy and I say could be wrong because we’re doing quick searches on the internet and we all know that the internet is, they
Cathy: must have been pretty harsh because think about how many songs talk about drugs.
Todd: I dunno. [00:29:00] Um, Cornell’s mom started a foundation for at risk youth.
Todd: Mm-hmm. Which is nice. Um, and I don’t know if we want to get into Kurt’s suicide note, but he did quote Neil Young. What’d he say? Um, well, at the very end I think it says, um, it’s better to burn out than to fade away. Oh, of course. Um, but yeah, like quick, a quick, uh, dive into his suicide note. His death on April 5th, 1994 was addressed to to, to boda, B-O-D-D-A-H, and Boda was his childhood imaginary friend and reveals a deeply conflicted, emotional, emotionally exhausted man.
Todd: We know that Kurt had a lot of stomach issues, right? Yeah.
Cathy: He had a lot of ill, he like, he, he had a lot of chronic
Todd: pain and illness. The note combines, reflections on his fame, love for music, relationships with fans, um, so on fame and music. He says, I haven’t felt the excitement of listening to, as well as creating music along with reading and writing for too many years now.
Todd: And he also felt guilty for no longer being connected to his audience. He says, [00:30:00] I feel guilty beyond words about these things. On his emotional pain. He says, I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me. Feel too effing sad. Mm-hmm. Uh, and share the pressure to fake enthusiasm. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I’m having a hundred percent fun.
Todd: Um, on his family, he says, Courtney, I love you. Please keep going. For Francis Francis Bean, that was his daughter. Mm-hmm. And to his daughter, Francis, I’ll be at your altar. Please keep going. Courtney for Francis, for her life, which will be so much happier without me. Mm. And then his final line is, it’s better to burn out than to fade away.
Cathy: Hmm. So many thoughts about that. Um, what’s so unfortunate is that in his mind, again, and this is mental illness, right? This is lack of mental health. Yes, it was connected to pain. And I understand that sometimes that in itself can be like, I don’t wanna be here for that reason, but that’s not what his note says.
Cathy: Yeah. His note is about the way he felt and thought about himself and the lack of him being able [00:31:00] to have the ability to see something else for himself. Like just something to bring up, you know? Is that about a month ago? Uh, I don’t know if you guys know this, but Tony Hawk’s son, Tony Hawk, the skateboarder.
Cathy: His son married Francis Bean. Oh, okay. I didn’t know
Todd: that.
Cathy: So they had a baby and Tony Hawk. Wrote this, put this post up and basically addressed it to Kurt Cobain and said, I’m with our granddaughter and I wish you could have been here to meet this baby. And, and so these, these guys and women who. Were so struggling with their own mental health and addiction.
Cathy: Didn’t ha first of all, didn’t have the support they needed. Which again, I’m just gonna keep saying that we just didn’t have it in the nineties, not the way that we do now. And they could not see beyond the next day. Yeah. You know, he probably had a show that night, he probably was being, um, you know, pushed to, to do a new album that he didn’t wanna do.
Cathy: And he’s like, since I [00:32:00] can’t do this, I’m not gonna be here. Versus there’s a, a many ways that I could go in life. I could choose. Yeah. People would be pissed off and they want, you know, he was a cash cow for them and he was being used by a lot of people, but he’s not here. Yeah. And, um, you know, it’s, that’s just a lot.
Cathy: And the ability for us to now talk about these things ’cause we didn’t really even talk about them. Yes. Like what they did after Kurt, um, was found dead, there was this vigil where everybody was sitting around and Courtney read the letter. Allowed mm-hmm. To everybody who was sitting there and obviously was broadcast on tv.
Cathy: So we all got to listen to her list, you know, read it and she would stop every once in a while and be like, you can f off. And, you know, she was so mad at him. Um, and Courtney, by the way, is Courtney Love. That’s, that was his wife. She was the lead singer of whole, um, and, you know, the processing of all of it, yes, we were feeling the pain, but we didn’t then talk about as [00:33:00] much what comes next.
Yeah.
Cathy: Like, because this happened let’s, you know, it was just more like, yep.
Yeah.
Cathy: That’s what happened. So there was such a end to it. Um, so a few other random facts. Well, I’ll, this is a little more of a remember when, but I, I think I mentioned this on another show, but I remember the day he died, I went to a samples concert and they sang, you know, they sang a song for him.
Cathy: Nothing lasts for long. And it was really meaningful to the day of, ’cause we were all dealing with this. It’s kind of like. Anytime an artist dies, depending on what their music meant to you, it can really kind of change your world a little bit. Yeah. Like I remember the day I found out Prince died, it really affected me in a interesting, I was like, whoa.
Cathy: My whole history right before my eyes. Right. And being in the middle of this era, you know, being in the nineties with Kurt Cobain not having him around was, um. It was altering. Yeah. It shook everybody up. Um, and to our, you know, the show, whole show [00:34:00] is about, we had one after another after another of lead singers dying.
Cathy: And so it really was shook us up. Yeah. So anyway, um, a few things, uh, that I wanted to say about random facts, and I’m not, I don’t know where to fit all of this in, but I’ll say that Mia Zapata, who was the lead singer of the gets, she actually did not die because of addiction or, um, she did not, um, die by suicide.
Cathy: She was murdered.
Yeah.
Cathy: Um, and she was murdered by a man who, uh, like basically came outta the blue and. Raped her and strangled her, and she was left for dead. Um, her friends couldn’t find her, and then they found her. And such a sad note. Her Walkman was still playing music when they found her. Like, it awful.
Cathy: Yeah, it was awful. Um, some things came out of that where they, that it happened in Seattle and there was a real awareness that, oh, wait, maybe there is some safety things we need to think about, especially when it comes to women. And there were [00:35:00] some, there was something I think called Home Alone that was cr or maybe, I can’t remember what it was called, but something in her name to be more thoughtful about walking alone and, you know, being, uh, people looking after each other because it was such a, um, grotesque crime.
Cathy: And it to somebody that, you know, the guy who did it didn’t know who she was.
Todd: The case remained unsolved for nearly a decade causing distress within the music community. In 2003, DNA evidence led to the arrest of Jesus, Ms. Quia Meia, a Florida man with a history of violence against women. He was convicted in 2004 and sentenced to 36 years in prison.
Todd: Ada. His death profoundly impacted Seattle’s music scene leading to the formation of home Alive, not-for-profit organization dedicated to providing self-defense classes and raising awareness about violence against. Women, her legacy endures through her
Cathy: music. So it did bring up some conversation around misogyny, around rape culture around, you know, it, it did start a conversation, but obviously we are still continuing to have that [00:36:00] conversation.
Cathy: Um, and then one thing that, uh, two very quick things, uh, sublime, their lead singer died also. Hi. There was a, uh, after his death, there was a self-titled album that became a breakout hit, I guess it, it, they had completed it and then it became big. And then Dolores from the Cranberries, she had recorded a cover of Zombie the day before she died.
Cathy: Oh, no kidding. Yeah. So, um, you know, random facts, they’re not very uplifting. No. Uh, you know, we’re gonna try and balance this out a little bit, but it was a heavy time. I mean, and that’s kind of the thing about grunge. It was heavy. Like, it was almost like it was the beginning of us talking about really difficult things Yeah.
Cathy: Without tools or resolution. Yeah. Like, it was kind of something exploded where we’re like, wait. This doesn’t work for me, or I’m in pain, or this is emotional for me and we, but we didn’t know what to do with it. So if you’re ready for WTF, I’m, I am.
Todd: Boy, that escalated quickly. I [00:37:00] mean, that really got outta hand fast.
Todd: It did. It jumped up a notch. It did it didn’t it? I messed up that up. I messed that up. Uh, so this is our WTF, um, I got a few of them. Okay. One is, um, there was a beef between Kurt Cobain and Axel Rose. Did you know that? Me? No.
Cathy: Let’s talk about
Todd: it. 1991, GNR invited Nirvana to open, let me scroll my screen over open for them.
Todd: On tour, Kurt declined mocking gn, R’S macho image and axel’s behavior. In interviews, Kurt saw Axel as an emblematic, uh, of toxic rockstar ego, while Axel seemed to resent Nirvana’s rising influence and disdain for mainstream rock culture. And then there was the MTV vm, A Showdown Backstage, MTV. Video Music awards.
Todd: Axel allegedly told Kurt to control Courtney. Ooh. Who had joked about Axel being their daughter’s godfather. Kurt Sarcastically told Courtney Axel says, I have to shut you up, or he is gonna beat me up. Axel reportedly threatened Kurt and Duff Mc. Keegan nearly [00:38:00] fought and nearly he’s a duff. Uh, no, Duff is a GR guy.
Todd: Oh.
Cathy: I thought he
Todd: was in Def Leppard. So thinking of a little bit of beef between those two guys,
Cathy: I, I didn’t wanna lose this and I I did and it’s a, it’s kind of going back, but it, it’s better to burn out than Fade away. Yeah. Was also used by Def Leppard at the beginning of Rock of Ages. Oh really? Do you remember?
Todd: Uh, no, I don’t. Do you wanna pull it up? Um, tell me exactly what it’s
Cathy: at the very beginning.
Todd: Beginning of
Cathy: what? Rock of Ages.
Todd: Rock of Ages.
Cathy: And sorry, Duff that I said you were in Duff Leppard when you’re in GR. Yeah, because I’m sure you’re listening.
Todd: Uh, let’s see if this works.
Cathy: Or he may not be alive anymore.
Todd: Do we [00:39:00] attribute that burnout to fade away to Neil Young or, I feel like it was part of like my British literature poetry.
Cathy: It it is. It’s from a long, I feel like that that went way back.
Todd: Yeah. I’m gonna find out.
Cathy: Isn’t that, isn’t that the who
Todd: I said British literature. I was thinking like the 17 hundreds.
Todd: Not who,
Cathy: sorry. I’m thinking other artists I, or was it The Stones? There was somebody who was like, or was it The Beatles? There was somebody who said that and then it’s funny ’cause they’re still performing now.
Todd: Uh, no. Neil Young. The phrase Neil Young is better to burn out. To Fade Away originated from Neil Young song.
Todd: My, my Hey, hey. Release in 1979.
Cathy: Oh, you know what I’m mixing it up with? Is that the, who has a song? I, I hope I die before I get old four. Get old. Talking about my generation. So different. But, um, same kind
Todd: of, uh, so I told you about the beep between Kurt yeah. And Axel. Mm-hmm. Uh, lane Staley. Um, his body was found with multiple newspapers piled outside.
Todd: The [00:40:00] neighbors assumed he was on a binge, but said he was actually dead. Mm. Not cool. Um, do you have any WTF moments?
Cathy: I guess my WTF it’s more, it’s less of a moment and more like, oh my God. ’cause I’m, you know, we’ve already read to all these people who died, but sus, substance use and mental health were at the core of 98% of these deaths.
Cathy: Yeah. I mean, you know, um, the industry lacked structure to support artists with addiction, depression, and trauma. Um, and grunge and alt rock, they thrived on authenticity, but they also thrived on isolation. Mm-hmm. You know, it was like we were, we’re so, you know, we’re in so much pain and this is such a part of our, you know, experience as artists.
Cathy: Um, they needed men living Todd. They did. Um, and then also the 27 Club Myth, you know, all of these artists who have died, it like perpetuated early, it glamorized early death.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: You know, is like, that’s what an artist did. Like, do you remember in the movie Whiplash?
Todd: I, we did a podcast on it, but I still have not yet [00:41:00] seen it.
Cathy: Well, there’s a scene where the guy, you know, miles teller’s, you know, uh, his role in it, his, there’s a part where he is talking about that he wants to be like Charlie Bird. I think I’m saying that right. Mm-hmm. Forgive me, everybody. Um, but he wants to be like bird, you know? That’s who he wants to be. Like he wants to be the best of the best when it comes to jazz.
Cathy: And he’s sitting at dinner with his family and they’re like, you know, he died. Mm-hmm. You know, like, he didn’t like you maybe don’t wanna do that. And he’s like, no, that’s fine with me as long as I’m the best of the best. Yeah. And I feel like that’s a very common feeling among, or it used to be among artists, um, is that’s okay if I die, as long as I do something significant.
Todd: Yeah. I’m actually pulling it up right now. I just don’t know if I can find the right spot where you’re talking about it. ’cause they’re at dinner.
Cathy: Yes. It’s that dinner scene. Uh.
Todd: S just tell me if I’m close.
Hey, there were school buddies. Am I right? Charlie Parker didn’t know anything. Charlie Parker. Joe [00:42:00] Jones threw a symbol at his head.
So that’s your idea of success, huh? I think being the greatest musician of the 20th century is anybody’s idea of success. Dying broke and drunk and full of heroin at the age of 34 is not exactly my idea of success. I’d rather die drunk, broke at 34 and have people at a dinner table talk about me then live to be rich and sober at 90.
And nobody remember who I was. Ah, but your friends will remember you. Well, that’s the point. None of us were friends with Charlie Parker. That’s the point. Travis and Dustin, they have plenty of friends and plenty of purpose. I’m sure they’ll make great school board presidents someday. Oh, that’s what this is all about.
You think you’re better than us? Catchall quick. Are you gonna model you in? I got a reply for you, Andrew. You think Carlton football’s a joke? Come play with us. Four words you will never hear from the NFL.
Cathy: Who wants to search
from Lincoln Center?
Cathy: That’s it. That’s intense. Did I say Charlie Parker or did I say something else?
Cathy: Probably
Todd: bird.
Cathy: I think they called him Bird. Right? You right. The wrong person. All right. Well anyway, um, Charlie Parker. So, um, that is, I think, a very typical mindset of someone who’s [00:43:00] young. Yeah. Because they want to be, and they miss, that’s the thing that’s like what the Tony Hawk comment about, you know, the, we’ve got a granddaughter here or a grandson maybe, I can’t remember if it was a boy or a girl that they had.
Cathy: But the whole point was there was a whole nother life.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Beyond.
Todd: Well, and as we kind of get into the deeper, are you okay with me going to ZPR,
Cathy: um,
Todd: over the WTF?
Cathy: Yeah, I actually am.
Todd: So the next three categories are more in the deeper end of the pool.
Cathy: Yeah. This is Zen parenting kind of stuff.
Todd: And we’re gonna start with this.
Todd: So, um, a few things. One is, um, I, I do a lot of work in the mental wellness aspect of my construction industry and I listen to this [00:44:00] TED Talk and, uh, it was the CEO of, uh, Ryan Companies. And there’s a guy named Brian. He’s a CEO. And one thing I remember from this TED Talk, there’s a million TED Talks and this one was powerful, but this man himself is a CEO of this big gc, big general contractor firm.
Todd: And he talked about his own battle with suicide ideation. And the one thing I remember from his Ted Talk was that he said, mental illness is real, it’s common, and it’s treatable it. And that’s it. It’s three things that we probably didn’t grasp in the nineties. Mm-hmm. It’s real. It’s really common and it is treatable.
Todd: Mm-hmm. And I just wanted to share that.
Cathy: Yeah. I think that is, I, that’s a perfect way to start, because our culture, our generational disillusionment, at least in the nineties, gen X artists, they rejected all the eighties excess. Mm-hmm. But then they got into grunge, heroin and nihilism. Yeah. Right. You know, like, so it, [00:45:00] they were rejecting one thing, but going deeper down the hole of thinking, this is cool, or this is what I do with my pain.
Cathy: You know, I’m using the word cool loosely. I’m not trying to be, um, I’m not trying to be flippant. I’m just saying that what became cool was this pain.
Mm-hmm. You
Cathy: know, which isn’t great. And there it was, you know, the pain that they were projecting, it wasn’t actually performative. Mm-hmm. It was like, so, like a glam artist, like a hair band would perform a song like a ballad.
Cathy: Like how much pain they were in, you know, like, Cinderella don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. And it’s just like, ugh. But it was performative. Yeah. And this music was not performative. It was real pain. And it was response to our world that felt really broken.
Todd: So here’s my thing, and this might, uh, take us on a detour, but I think it’s an important one.
Todd: First of all, I was in that generation. Yeah. And of course, pain was real. But if I am my parents’ age, I would be like, yeah. In the early nineties, there was a [00:46:00] stigma against mental wellness and there was a stigma against mental health and there weren’t resources available, but resources weren’t available for the hundreds of years before that too.
Todd: So what made us Gen X people so special to think that we were so special? Every generation that came before us, they didn’t have any of these resources.
Cathy: I mean, the world was changing in so many ways. We weren’t of the World War II era, we weren’t of the depression era where you’re basically just trying to survive.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. You know, you’re struggling to get by, you’re trying to keep your family together, you’re trying to stay alive. Literally, we, we, as a country as a whole, we’re in a lot of global. Challenges. I know we still are, but it’s, it was a time of, um, the, the culture itself was different. The, the roles that we had in our families were different.
Cathy: The expectations of men and women were different, and Gen X, like all generations were a bridge to something new. Things were shifting, things were changing, and how did we feel about that and what our expectations [00:47:00] were. Again, all parents are like, I want my kids to have it better than I did. And that was definitely a huge part of us growing up, right?
Cathy: Mm-hmm. A lot of my friend’s parents did not go to college. Um, you know, they had them write post-Vietnam War, you know, right when they were 18 and they’re like, okay, you guys are gonna go do something different. And the whole thing about women should be able to do whatever they wanna do, you know, it’s a very nine to five working girl kind of, you know, the Go-Go’s are out there.
Cathy: Joan Jets out there we’re like, yeah, we can do anything. And things were changing fast. Um, then we bring in Reagan, who everything is about making money, and it becomes a very greedy culture. Mm-hmm. And everything is about how much money we can make and how preppy we can be and how yuppie we can be. And we started to get very disillusioned.
Cathy: Things were not, um, what they seemed, I mean, I, that’s not a, a ba that’s, that’s me just talking off the top of my head. Do you know what I mean? I don’t really know. But that’s my feeling.
Todd: Here’s my very [00:48:00] unfair, critical, um. Criticism of my generation, and this is, we’re speaking in just expansive, vast generalizations here.
Todd: But I judge that our kids have more to navigate than I, than we, I’ll use we statements than we ever did. You know, our kids have to deal with a cell phone. We didn’t have to deal with cell phones. That’s a huge variable. Our kids had to deal with COVID, um, you know, in the early nineties. Yeah. We had, you know, some small wars, some conflicts happen.
Todd: I just, I just didn’t feel like we had. Really big, heavy things to worry about.
Cathy: Well, I think you’re, you’re looking just externally and you’re not thinking internally. And the thing is, is that regardless of what’s going on in humanity, if you’re in a war time or not, there’s a lot going on inside. Yeah.
Cathy: That has nothing to do with our external experiences. And I think our generation we’re some of the first to start talking about, um, [00:49:00] being molested. Yeah. By somebody that Yeah. Was an authority figure. Your
Todd: parents’ generation would just push all that down, never bring it up. Right.
Cathy: And, or having, being hit by your parents or, you know, being raped or being, all this stuff started to come up and we started to talk about it, but again, we didn’t have resources to deal with it.
Cathy: It just like laid like it, it was pain.
Yeah.
Cathy: You know, it just sat there. Yeah. Without us knowing or acknowledging, like we did not, yes. I knew people who went to therapy and therapy was a thing, but it was not a typical thing. Yeah. Like, you know, if you remember the movie, oh, it was
Todd: the exception.
Cathy: It was the exception, like.
Cathy: You know, ordinary people. The whole thing of that movie that came out in the early eighties was a kid who, his brother died and he went to therapy because he was struggling so much and it was really taboo.
Right?
Cathy: And so, you know, then all of a sudden in the nineties we start getting into goodwill hunting and, you know, things start to normalize and everything, but it’s, it was not, you did, you have the pain, things were coming out, things were exploding.
Cathy: But again, [00:50:00] what do you do with it? Yeah. And so there was a lot of pressure put on the individual. That is why, for me, what I found in the late eighties, early nineties was self-help.
Mm-hmm.
Cathy: So there was also a self-help explosion, a personal growth explosion. And, um, it, there was a different kind of spirituality moving away from religion into being more spiritual.
Cathy: And that’s where I found, yeah. Salvation. Like that’s where I was like, this is where I can, you know, find a way to look at my own pain. Mm-hmm. But it, you know, people, there was just, you know, there was also this romantic, uh, how do I say this word, romanticization. Romanticizing, you romanticized.
Cathy: Romanticizing the tortured artist. Right? There was also a lot of, you got a lot of kudos for being a tortured artist. It was, pain was a creative asset. It wasn’t a red flag. It was like, you know, that made you more creative. And addiction was often ignored or encouraged for the art. Yeah. Like people didn’t want us, I mean, let’s go into like, and this was more like seventies, but you know, on the re watchable [00:51:00] in the seventies, there was a lot of like cocaine, right.
Cathy: And there’s a lot of drugs. Like I’m thinking Saturday Night Live kinda time. Yeah. And then in the eighties and nineties there was two. Mm-hmm. There was a lot of drugs, there was a lot of crazy movies. There was a lot of stuff out there. Especially heroin. And um, you know, I feel like
Todd: heroin didn’t come around until the eighties and nineties.
Cathy: Yes. It wasn’t in the seventies. Seventies was a lot of cocaine.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: But I think it was still around. I mean, there was just a lot of drug use. I mean, think about the crack epidemic. Think we went through so many phases of drugs.
Yeah.
Cathy: And we continue to, you know, they continue. Now we’re in a fentanyl Yeah.
Cathy: Phase where we’re talking about that. But, so part of this problem at this time was that artists, artists who were very tortured, their labels didn’t intervene and help them. No. It was part of the, they just wanna, their money, they, they made money off of it. And so can you see how that then relates to us individually?
Cathy: Maybe we weren’t tortured artists. There was just kind of this Yeah, you have pain, but I’m not gonna do anything about it. Right. You [00:52:00] know, so I do agree with you that we probably, we don’t have the cultural explosion as far as so much change. In terms of like, you know, leaders and Sure. Or did we like, I don’t know how much I was paying attention.
Cathy: No. You know, our kids,
Todd: our kids these days are more
Cathy: engaged Yes. Worldly events than I ever was because of social media. Sure. So it’s like, I knew who was president and I knew, I remember in college when we went to war, don’t you remember watching the, of course. You know, Baghdad and everything. Mm-hmm. Like, I remember it, I just don’t know how engaged I was.
Cathy: Okay. So, um, let’s talk about, are we ready for the next one? No, we’re enrolling in the deep cell. Oh, okay. Go ahead. I, I basically haven’t even started, but I won’t do a ton ’cause I know we need to keep moving so I. Let’s talk about, um, pain for attention. We’re kind of still, we’re in that vibe already. It’s so, it was about the image of pain and not the healing of pain.
Cathy: It’s just another way to say that. Um, it’s like, you know, pain becomes stylized. Um, we get stuck in repetition. We’re not into [00:53:00] emotional growth the way that we are now. We’re kind of just, this is who I am. Yeah. Um, we are, and, and when I’m saying we are the artists, again, I’m reiterating why we do this pop culture podcast.
Cathy: What’s going on in the culture is a reflection of us. And so our artists were feeling and acting a certain way. And while we weren’t having the exact same experiences, it was reflecting what people were feeling. That’s why the music meant something to us. Right. You know, that’s why it was popular. So, you know, expressing real pain, um, it came from a need to survive.
Cathy: You know, the pain was, we were talking, it was out there like it was being demonstrated in the music, but we were not, um, doing anything about it. Right. We were like just living in it and it was raw and messy and bad. And it’s like, um, the thing that’s happening now, and this is, this is kind of ver this kind of borders on parenting, but it’s its own thing, is that there is a lot of stuff on social media that [00:54:00] is performative pain.
Cathy: Sure. Okay. There’s a lot of people who get on social media and they cry and they show their tears and they’re like, and then they get a lot of kudos for that
Todd: attention seeking device.
Cathy: It’s very attention seeking. Um, but it, it kind of. It kind of dumbs down sadness. It, um, anesthetizes it. Is that a word?
Todd: Well, if you’re trying, if you have to post you crying because you just broke up with your boyfriend or your girlfriend, the, this is a little judgy, but like, it seems a little bit less than authentic.
Cathy: Well, real pain. Real pain is quiet.
Yeah.
Cathy: It’s like internalized. It’s like depression. It’s, it’s deep thoughts.
Cathy: And performative pain is, is often very dramatic. Yeah. And external and, um, attention seeking. Yeah. And so a lot of times this performative pain, I’m not sitting here as a therapist saying, you have no pain. You shouldn’t share it. But a lot of times it’s like, Ooh, I had a breakup. I’m gonna get online and start crying.
Cathy: Yeah. That’s not real pain.
Todd: Most of [00:55:00] us from our generation, if we were gonna be vulnerable enough to be sad, we would go into a room. Correct. And not share with anybody, we would get outta Dodge.
Cathy: And so this blurs the lines a little bit because as a therapist, I’m glad people are expressing pain, right? But why are they expressing pain?
Cathy: What are they getting from it? This kind of gets really messy and gray. Performative pain gets really rewarded and real pain when you’re, okay. So performative pain is something that we watch and we go, wow, real pain is hard to watch. Mm-hmm. Like when you’re with someone who’s in real pain, like the kind of, you know, crying that’s like guttural.
Cathy: Yeah. That is not easy to watch. No. Or experience. So we we’re blending these worlds a little bit where, you know, again, I keep saying as a therapist, I have sat with people in real pain over and over and over again and it does not look like what we’re seeing on social media. Right. And it doesn’t mean, [00:56:00] you know, and then I’m gonna speak as someone who wrote a book about teen girls.
Cathy: A lot of girls do this, and it doesn’t mean that they’re lying are lying. Right. And it doesn’t mean they’re, oh, now they’re overdramatic. It means how are they getting their needs
Todd: met? Well, and they’re probably been, uh, supported with their peers. Right. Because if they see their peers doing it, then they want to do the same thing.
Cathy: It normalizes that experience. And so, you know, like Kurt Cobain or Lane Stanley, they, or Staley, they did the music to cope and survive. Mm-hmm. It wasn’t, they were actually like, please don’t put me on the cover of Rolling Stone. Yeah. You know what I mean? They were like, I’m trying to do this. I’m not trying to brand myself.
Right.
Cathy: I’m trying to cope. And so again, the music industry often branded. Mm-hmm. That pain. Um, so some are, you know, some artists explore pain as a concept, not a lived experience, but we can feel. The difference. I can’t You feel the difference? Of course. You know, and so it’s, it again, it’s just kind of, that’s where I’ll go with that.
Cathy: So let’s [00:57:00] move on to parenting.
Todd: All right. Parental guidance.
Be like you, the cat
when you’re coming home, dad.
Todd: So my only thing about this, uh, you know, thing that I thought is most worth sharing, which is what we’ve been talking about Zen parenting for 15 years, is that asking for help equals strength. Amen. And we weren’t taught that growing up. You gotta hide that stuff. You gotta bury that, put it in your, just bury it somewhere in your body.
Todd: Um, and I think our kids are good at. Uh, not doing that.
Cathy: I think our kids have now have more permission to share that pain and then really know they can access resources. Yeah. And for us as Gen Xers who maybe come from the tortured artist, you know, deal with your pain, repress it, do what you have to do, have a shot of bourbon, you know, you know, have your 10 glasses of wine that isn’t good in the long run.
Cathy: That’s, there’s [00:58:00] no way to, to, uh, grow from that. That keeps
Todd: you stuck. Well, and the, and the other parental guidance one I have is that celebrity doesn’t equal happiness.
Cathy: I have that as well. Like I actually have, fame does not equal health and talent does not equal invincibility. I took in my college class with my college students, so many of them over the past 13 years, we talk about what they want and there’s always this desire for fame.
Cathy: And a lot of it is social media fame and influencer fame and that kind of thing. But we talk about how so many people who get that fame are not happy. Yeah. And how so many of them do. Die by suicide, or they end up in rehab over and over again. You know, again, I’ve been teaching at this college so long, I used to talk about Justin Bieber, how, you know, sad he was the way Michael Jackson died.
Cathy: The way all of these artists that we’re talking about today from the nineties, it was all addiction and depression. Yeah. And so, you know. We have to be able to manage our talent and to recognize what being [00:59:00] happy really means. And when I say manage, what I mean is have a wider perspective that our talent, we are not like overwhelmed by it.
Cathy: That we get to choose where we use it and when we use it and how we use it.
Todd: Um, well we’ve, I’ve shared, um, when you and I are doing parenting presentations, I sometimes lead with say, what do you want for your kids? And everybody’s always like, I want happiness. And where I always come to is we want wholeness.
Todd: Absolutely. Which means. Creating space and acceptance for the happy, you know, happy emotions. And also the ones that are less comfortable, like anger, fear, and sadness. Like, I don’t want my kids to be happy because that means that, that that’s the only thing you’re shooting for. I, I want to be able to give them.
Todd: The ability to express any emotion that’s coming up in a responsible, conscious way.
Cathy: Yeah. Like what our generation has been able to do, talk about bridging the gap between the boomers and millennials and Gen Z is, I think Gen X has been able to talk about and normalize [01:00:00] emotions and recognize that, um, or start that conversation now, gen Z is excellent at it, that all these emotions are fine.
Cathy: Yeah. Um, yeah, I’m sad or yeah, I’m stressed or Yeah, I’m overwhelmed and that’s not me. I am not anxiety, I am feeling anxious. Right. You know, there’s a whole, and some people again, you know, who get diagnosed with these things, sometimes it’s more extreme, but that’s when they get help.
Sure.
Cathy: So, um, I think the, you know, so again, reiterating what you say.
Cathy: As far as parenting goes in, what we’ve learned from these experiences from the nineties is that, you know, expressing sadness is strength, just like you said. And that asking for help is necessary. And as, as parents to not impose this thing on our kids that they should be suffering in silence. Oh. And that they, we show up wherever they are.
Cathy: Yeah. And say, we will help you. And, and last we were, Todd and I were talking about one of our favorite scenes from a movie that has, it is a parenting scene, um, from [01:01:00] the movie. This is 40. Oh yeah. Where, uh, Paul Rudd is married to Leslie Man Mann and Leslie Mann and her daughters are listening to like, I think it’s a Nikki, uh, song.
Cathy: And he’s like, no, no, you gotta listen to this song.
Why’d you take it off now? Something that really rocks. Send me picture. This is called good from somebody’s heart. Call me out for fun. Just listen to these words, okay? Just listen to the words.
I don’t understand the word. This is lyrics, this is poetry. This is what, this is what is gonna survive. In a hundred years. It just doesn’t make people happy. Makes me happy. I can dance today.
Todd: Thank God I am so, um, you are so powerful. Well, my version of [01:02:00] that is I used to force my kids to listen to Shine on Your Crazy Diamond in the Car, which is a Peak Floyd song that I think is like 14 or 15 minutes long and like they don’t even start singing any words until like six minutes in.
Todd: And so I am Paul Rudd, just so you know.
Cathy: And that is Rooster By Sound Garden. So is Sound Garden. Alison, Alison Chains. I’m sorry. Sorry. Alison Chains. Um, so anyway, we could move to, what did we learn?
Todd: All right. So what did this teach us, sweetheart?
Cathy: Well, the torches, the tortured artist myth. It’s deadly. Yep. I mean it, this whole idea of I’m gonna be this tortured artist, if it’d be, um, I feel like in the nineties it was glaring that it was musicians, but we’ve done this in history as far as writers who are tortured, you know, this whole idea of that we need to be in a lot of pain, um, to, to have good art.[01:03:00]
Cathy: Yeah. And that is not true. We can have great art come through our pain, but as a, as a post-traumatic growth versus, uh, constantly being stuck
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: In that pain.
Todd: Um, what I have is unprocessed pain or grief becomes addiction. Rage or isolation.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Um, I also have emotional education isn’t optional. It’s survival.
Todd: Mm-hmm. You and I have spoken a lot about that. That’s,
Cathy: we’ve, we’ve put our whole career on that.
Todd: We sure did. Um, here’s my question, unanswerable question, but I want your 2 cents.
Yeah.
Todd: Do you think that artists, um. Are better equipped to write really deeply impactful music when they are in pain versus when they are happy?
Cathy: Um, I think that it is more, let’s just talk about this from an emotional, like psychological level. When we are in pain, think back to when you are, you are a lot more vulnerable and open. You’re less worried about what other people think you are. You’re more open to [01:04:00] new possibilities rather than trying to stay stuck in a system that’s not working for you.
Cathy: And I know that I have written some wonderful things when I’m in the most pain because I don’t care. Yeah. I’m like, this is going to be from my heart. I am not gonna try and make this, rationalize this for this person. This is how I feel now. So it’s not about that. It’s, we can still know that, that we can have, you know, utilize that vulnerability that we’re feeling, that pain, that we’re feeling to have great art come out.
Cathy: Um, but I think the key is, is then, then we move on. Yeah. Then we, and we may have pain again. And then that’s how we process it. I mean, this is what all artists do now. I mean, it’s this very Taylor Swift ish conversation. I’m only using her. Everybody does it. Olivia Rodrigo does it. Gracie Abrams does it. Uh, you know, Sabrina Carpenter, well, she’s more like funny about it, but, but they also have songs that are really fun and uplifting and, and heart-centered that have nothing to do with their pain, but about being in love.[01:05:00]
Cathy: So that’s also a vulnerable time.
Todd: So if I, if I box you in a corner and say yes or no, the question is. Is most of this art, musical art that we appreciate come from pain or joy.
Cathy: Pain
Todd: for sure. Mm-hmm. Does that mean we’re better equipped to deliver creativity from pain versus joy?
Cathy: It means that sometimes some of the great work comes from pain.
Cathy: Yeah. And, and some of the things that we love the most, but some, it’s, it doesn’t have to be like, I’m thinking about American Pie. Okay. This, you know, Don McLean song that is about a sadness, that is about a loss of, um, you know, the plane that went down that had all some of our best artists, you know, in the plane.
Cathy: And Don McLean was devastated by that. And he talked about our country and he talked about loss. And it wasn’t like he was a tortured artist.
He was sitting in the back. It’s American. Bye.
He
Cathy: processed his feelings about [01:06:00] that loss through the song. Yeah, but he, he’s not like, so therefore I’m a depressed person. Right. It’s because he, I’m gonna go back to what you said before under parenting lens. Our kids are gonna have sad times, hard times, anxious times, whatever, and they don’t need to create them or manufacture them.
Cathy: They’re just gonna happen. Of course. So what can you do during that time? Like one of the best things you can do is journal. Yeah. If you’re not a journaler, if you like to write lyrics, write lyrics. If you like Drake screenplays, write screenplays and you work that through and then you can do the other parts of it, the performing of it, the creation of it.
Cathy: With more joy. Yeah. Um, the, but the idea that all of your work is gonna come from this stuck, sad, painful place, I question that. Yeah. Like, that’s not necessarily, it’s just a moment in time.
Todd: What else? Do you have anything else for? What did it suggest?
Cathy: Um, I mean, the final thing is that the music industry or any industry it needs to have, they have to evolve and have, um, better support systems.
Cathy: Yeah. We can’t ha you know, [01:07:00] Matthew Perry just died last year and it’s because all of these enablers, all these people around him that worked for him were like, yeah, I’ll give you a shot. And there was a bunch of doctors who took advantage of him and who were like, yeah, I’ll sell you ketamine. Like, we have to have better support systems for these people.
Cathy: And I don’t, when I say that, it’s such a huge generalization because every individual with money gets to choose who am I going to have on my team? Yeah. But as far as an industry goes, the whole idea of in the nineties. That they, you know, cashed in on the, the pain of these artists. I think that that has had its time.
Cathy: We’re
Todd: beyond it. You ready for cringe classics? I’m
Cathy: ready.
Todd: Nobody puts K in the corner and I mean, no. Nobody. Um, so here are a few cringe or classics I have, and it may be controversial. Okay. But I’m gonna just start, well, I’ll start easy. Uh, flannel overload. Just the whole flannel thing. A
Cathy: lot of flannel,
Todd: cringey or [01:08:00] classic.
Cathy: I loved it.
Todd: Um,
Cathy: I still have my flannel.
Cathy: Not the ones from you. You’ve been wearing a flannel every day. Or like the, it’s
Todd: purple.
Cathy: Yes. I know
Todd: you put, um, the myth of the torture. Genius. Cringe or classic. Yeah.
Cathy: Cringe.
Todd: Cringe. And then lastly, this is the controversy. One smells like teen spirit. Oh, classic. A little overplayed. Oh. But it’s a classic. I know.
Todd: Yeah. Um, there, I would never categorize it as cringey, but I, it’s one of those songs I have listened to to too many times. Sure. To really appreciate. What do you have?
Cathy: Well, it’s the music, it’s the honesty of the music. It’s classic. It’s um, it’s my generation of post-college and post-college. So it means a lot to me for all of those deep reasons.
Cathy: The, you know, it’s timeless music. The cringe is how the industry ignored the red flags. Right. That’s what’s cringe to me. Um, they glorified addiction sold out. Tragedy is like a brand. Yeah. So,
Todd: um, are we ready for what’s next?
Cathy: Yes. For music game,
Todd: uh, music [01:09:00] game. Oh,
Cathy: no. Or is it who came
Todd: best? Quote. Let’s say music came to the end.
Cathy: There’s, there’s a few we have left and we’ll do them quickly. Um, where are they now?
Todd: Uh, what, what about Best quote.
Cathy: Okay. I’m ready for best quote.
May the force be with you? May the force be with you. May the force be with you.
Todd: May
the force
Todd: be with
you.
Todd: May the force, may the force be with you, be with you.
Todd: Um, what do you have for best quote?
Cathy: I actually have two.
Todd: Okay.
Cathy: Um, I have a Kurt Cobain quote. I’d rather be hated for who I am than loved, for who I am not, which is a super Gen X rejection of performance and conformity. Yep. Um, I still, I think that’s a big part of what I talk about with parenting is, you know, let’s let our kids be who they are.
Cathy: Like instead of try and be performative. Um, and then of course, sweetie, uh, we’re huge in Belgium. It’s one of my favorite Gen X books is, is it be, ‘
Todd: cause I say that to you all the time. I feel like I may have screwed up the country. Is it,
Cathy: it’s, it’s cliff from Citizen Dick says We’re huge
Todd: in Belgium when in fact nobody knows who they are in Belgium.
Todd: No. [01:10:00] And barely anybody in Seattle knows who they are.
Cathy: Todd and I say that sometimes ’cause Zen Parenting radio is huge in Belgium. Zen pop parenting now we are sometimes number one in other smaller countries. And so we’re always like, we’re huge in this small country. That’s
right.
Cathy: Um, which we love and appreciate.
Cathy: We’re not making fun of it, but it’s like Cliff says he’s huge in Belgium and is he?
Todd: Yeah. So those are mine. What are you? Um, mine is, uh, from, it’s a lyric from a song by Pearl Jam. You probably know what it’s gonna be, sweetie. Okay. I don’t even know if I have it queued up. Right. But here we go.[01:11:00]
Todd: I know someday you’ll have a beautiful life. I know you’ll be a star in someone else’s sky, but why can’t it be mine? It’s just like heart wrenching. Yeah. Love it. Yeah, it’s a
Cathy: great love. Um, lovely Thank Cody.
Todd: And then there is, if you ever want a YouTube, Dave Letterman Black. ’cause that’s from the song called Black Off of 10.
Todd: Um, Dave, Dave is just singing it like night after Nate night. Just that part
do.
Todd: And then finally after weeks, Eddie comes in, sings that one song and walks off stage. It’s just really poetic love. Um, okay, are we ready for Where are they now? Where are they now?
Where are you? Willow you go
Todd: in nature. Um, I don’t really know what, where to go with this.
Todd: Where, where do you wanna go? I
Cathy: went really simplistic because there’s so many people from the nineties and I It’s boring to go. Yeah. Through it all. I just did the real basics. I [01:12:00] did David Grohl. Yeah. Uh, coming out of Nirvana, creating the Foo Fighters. Um, he had, he had, uh, some difficulty a couple years ago,
Todd: marital,
Cathy: marital issues, but, you know, foo Fighters continue even after Taylor Hawkins, their, um, drummer died.
Cathy: Yeah. Uh, but you know, the. The Cranberries, um, released a album in 2019 using Dolores’s final vocals. Mm-hmm. So there was an album that came out, um, Soundgarden briefly reunited before Chris Cornell’s death. Um, so you, you know, they’re, we had another moment with them, um, Shirley Manson from Garbage. We didn’t really talk about the band garbage, but I really liked them in the nineties.
Cathy: I think they’re kind of still on the verge of grunge at that time. Maybe they were more grunge adjacent, but they’re still out there. She’s still performing. Um, and she’s amazing. And then the organization that you talked about with Meia Zapata, uh, called Home Alive, they’ve helped thousands of people rethink safety and consent and empowerment through activism.
Cathy: So that’s really made an impact.
Todd: Uh, a few things I’ll share is you and I [01:13:00] went to see Pro Jam, was it this last summer? I think?
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: It was so good. So they’re all still together. I think they switched drummers here or four times. But the four guys stone, uh, Jeff. Eddie and, um, God, I forgot the fourth one.
Todd: I’m sorry. Um, they’re still together. They’re, they’re crushing it. They’re still putting out good music.
Cathy: They are so good. Yeah. Like Todd, I mean, we’ve seen Pearl Jam several times, but at this show I didn’t know all the music because I definitely had gaps in my Pearl Jam, you know, archive. Yep. Like I missed, you know, albums.
Cathy: Yeah. And it was still amazing. Like most of it I knew, but the songs I did and I was like, this is still great. And to just the fact that they, he, first of all, just as a big moment to say that Eddie Veter is the only surviving lead singer of the Big five. Right. That’s pretty significant. It’s crazy. Of the big five grunge bands, he is the only surviving lead singer.
Cathy: And they continue to tour, as you said. Yep.
Todd: Um, okay, so now is [01:14:00] it music game? I think it is. And will you, oh, do I.
Makes me go all long.
Todd: Um, explain what the music game
Cathy: is. The music game is a game that Todd and I and our friends Chris and Manisha came up with, where we, um, choose a topic and then we decide what song matches that vibe of that topic the most, as I say, every week, it’s not supposed to be the most obvious song.
Cathy: It’s supposed to be the song that is, um, it, it’s something that means something to us personally so we can defend why we chose this song to match the vibe. So this is tough. Yeah. Because we’re talking about all this nineties music, um, and we have to choose one song.
Todd: Yeah. You want me to go first or do you want It’s
Cathy: up to you.
Cathy: Yeah, go ahead.
Todd: I guess I’ll go first. Um, I’m not sure if this is my best entry, but I’m gonna do it anyways. Okay. And then I’ll explain.
Take.[01:15:00]
Todd: I think that’s just for that line. Right? It’s
Cathy: excellent. I love it. Good for,
Todd: because it’s chili peppers. Uh, we didn’t really talk much about them because they’re like an eighties band and a nineties and a two thousands and a two thousands.
Cathy: They somehow match that grunge vibe, though. They really do. And that song
Todd: is Al I feel like there’s certain songs that just feel sadness, so sad.
Todd: And this is what, and I don’t know if it has to do with the, it’s probably the music that, not so much the words, but anyways, uh, it was going
Cathy: through my, uh, first very big breakup when that song was popular. And I, that song broke my heart. Mm. And I, it, you know, if you listen to the words, it’s, it’s not, it didn’t relate to me Right.
Cathy: As a girl, but I, I got it. [01:16:00] Yeah. I was like, Ooh, this song makes me sad. Uh, what do you got, babe? So Im gonna surprise you because this is kind of obvious. Okay. Um, usually I tend to go really obscure Yep. And try and be interesting. But I chose a live by Pearl Jam. Oh, wow. Um, I really did a lot of thinking. I thought about it for a whole week, Todd.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. And the whole idea of this song being about family secrets and identity. And emotional confusion. I mean, this song is intense. Like not only is it about, um, him recognizing his father as in his father, but there’s also an incestuous thing that happens in the second verse. Yeah. And they say that just that, you know, as Pro Jam always does read it for what you think it is.
Cathy: Hey.[01:17:00]
Cathy: So that line right there. Yeah. Sorry you didn’t see him, but I’m glad we talked. Yeah. Like end of story. And this whole thing that Eddie Vetter has experienced with his father, it, it is still a part of his music. Yeah. Like it has impacted every aspect of his life.
Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Um, and then he also, the song was also written by Stone Gossard.
Cathy: And so that the whole thing about, you know, the verse of someone walking in, you know, she walked in and mm-hmm. You know, that verse Yeah. Um, walks into a young man’s room and it’s like, what happened to these boys? Yeah. Were they molested? Were, was it a parent?
Yeah.
Cathy: What, you know, like these, these things.
Cathy: And the song doesn’t, I mean, he says I’m still alive.
Yeah.
Cathy: But it has not been. Yeah. It hasn’t been a, you know, resolved.
Yeah.
Cathy: And so I feel like it just contains exactly what the nineties are about.
Todd: [01:18:00] Yeah.
Cathy: As far as music,
Todd: um, I’m a little unprepared for the trivia, but I’ll try my best anyway. Okay.
Let’s do it.
Okay.
Todd: Um, sweetie, what was the debut album of the Stone Temple Pilots? I, God I know. Oh, it wasn’t plush, was it? It was not, I think it was called Core CO It
Cathy: was You’re right. Core,
Todd: which James Bond film featured a theme song sung by Chris Cornell. Which James Bond film?
Cathy: I have no idea.
Todd: Casino Royale.
Cathy: Oh, interesting.
Todd: Uh, what was Cranberry’s most iconic protest song? I.
Cathy: Uh, it was zombies.
Todd: It was very, that’s very good. Um, take a guess. What year was Kurt Cobain born? Well,
Cathy: uh,
Todd: I’m gonna say 1968. [01:19:00] Uh, 67. Close enough. Okay. I’ll give you a point. Scott Weiland also fronted, which super group with members of GNR, uh, velvet Revolver.
Todd: Very good. Uh, Cornell formed the super group Audio Slave with members of which band? Uh, was it, I don’t, I don’t know if this is correct. I’m, I was a little scared doing frigging Temple of the Dog. Uh, we didn’t even talk about that.
Cathy: And, uh, explain to me Temple of the Dog, because it’s Eddie Temple. Better Temple.
Cathy: It
Todd: was
Cathy: Chris Cornell Sin
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Or Chris Cornell saying Chris Cornell.
Todd: It was, um, it was an album. I think it was like a mini album where they wrote two or three songs and it was to honor, uh, Andy, I forget his last name. The guy who passed away from Mother Love Bone. I.
Cathy: Oh, how, see it brings it all back. I should have chosen.
Cathy: I should have chosen, I’m going hungry. I’m going home. ’cause that would’ve been, I
Todd: thought about using that as my song
Cathy: because they are singing a song. Yeah. These, these guys get together, they sing a song about a guy who died. Yeah. And then one of those guys also dies. Yeah. [01:20:00] You know, like we’re, you know, gosh, it makes me wanna just go over that song and
I
decade.
I can’t power.
Todd: Um, but we’re not going to close that, uh, this podcast with that song, even though I love that song. Uh, any parting thoughts before I close this out?
Cathy: I think that that was a really thorough, I mean, obviously there’s so many other things to talk about, but I really enjoyed that. Thank you very much.
Todd: Um, I’m gonna close with a cranberry song called Dreams. Um, when Dolores died, it just kind of punched me in the gut. We actually talked about it in Zen Parenting Podcast one time, and I just love Dolores and I feel bad that she had to numb out to alcohol. Um, and this is one of my favorite, uh, cranberry songs.
Todd: Change it. [01:21:00] See you next week, everybody.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
